albedo wrote:
You gave the impression that Baháʾís were accepted by Muslims, I merely stating this is generally not the case. Even with moderates, they don't really agree with it. They can reconcile themselves with Christians, because the this tradition is used to validate Islam (even if they get theme totally wrong). They have no choice, Baháʾís invalidates what Muslims believe about the word.
Again, I asked you to quote me (since I never said anything close to what you wrote).
Some Baháʾís are accepted by
some Muslims. You are talking about human beings, not a "thing." However, that is all unrelated to what I wrote.
albedo wrote:
I talked to literally dozens and dozens of Muslims in my time of many varieties and am cordial with them, I live in London (Tooting) this is hardly surprising, I literally 5 minutes walk from a mosque. What would names mean to you over the internet? I went to university in a very Asian university, which had Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Balkan, Saudi, Turkish Muslim, etc, etc. I walked in on the now banned Al Muhajiroun who were trying to indoctrinate one of the Muslim who live across the hall from me. This was in 2000.
I can't respond to anecdotes without evidence. I have also run into Muslims who were very interested in converting people.
However, I also work with Muslims on the faculty. I have friendly relations with all of them, and none of them has ever treated me disrespectfully.
albedo wrote:
You are missing the point. I'm saying that moderates are appeasers who have their cake an eat it, where as extremist are the most honest about their faith.
Then Christians who allow women to speak in a church are also appeasers. So are Jews who do not kill adulterers:
Quote:
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife - with the wife of his neighbor - both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Leviticus 20: 10
albedo wrote:
There are some notable exceptions, but these are in the minority.
If you base your understandings of Muslims on Muslim websites or on the far-right media, you might come to that conclusion. However, you would be factually incorrect.
albedo wrote:
The biggest problem with Islam is the moderates, rather than the extremists. The extremist are a threat to us, but the moderates, do not deal with the issues in their religion, and the cry about being the most affected by it. Well this may be the case, but they continue to tolerate and appease, and not really deal with the theistic root of the religion, which is driving the extremist. Instead trying to pave over it, and being in denial.
lol. So, "they" are all bad. Damned if they do; and damned if they don't. Is that what you are saying?
albedo wrote:
The reality is even in the moderate community, who don't share the extremists lifestyle, there is still a degree of political sympathy for their cause, and they make excuses for them regularly.
Again, factually incorrect. Most Muslims, especially in the West, are upset and embarrassed when a Muslim commits an atrocity.
albedo wrote:
This is to do with the "holding the conscience hostage" element in Islam, and the fact this is backed up by very real violence. After a while they start to a believe that this violence is the fault of others such of the west, like someone by who is abused, might start to believe that it is not the abusers fault.
Ah, so all Muslims are hostage takers? I get you now.
albedo wrote:
Again you are not reading the language correctly. "You know where you stand" is a phrase, it means there is certainty on their position. they are straight forward.
Thank you for the clarification. I thought you were accusing me of sympathizing with religious extremists.
albedo wrote:
I don't agree. I have researched this, and there is some small moment to doctrinally reform Islam. But you are talking about tiny groups of individuals. No mainstream mosque carried the moniker Reform Islam. Muslims still worship under the same mosques. These group are up against it, anything that poses a threat to Islam, is ostracized.
You have researched it from what source?
albedo wrote:
Ahmadiyya have been ostracized for years. They were actually the first mosque built in London, in response to persecution. Just recently Ahmadiyya a political candidate, was harassed by regulars from my local Sunni mosque, the meeting was stormed, and they basically refused to leave, and were letting a loose tirade of hate fill bile. Most of these people are just average Joe, in terms of Muslim. I meet to them all the time, they have double standards, they are not Salfists, or necessarily that pious,. You should know being Baháʾís.
I was just providing a list of possibilities. However, to your point, the Qadianis are ostracized. The Lahoris (the smaller sect) are generally not (except by people who don't know the Aḥmādīyah). Nevertheless, it doesn't matter. The same kinds of battles have been taking place between branches of Islām since the 7th c. A.D.
albedo wrote:
You said "The life of the Prophet has been distorted by His detractors." There are literally hundreds of conspiracies like this. Paranoia is rife in the Muslim world. The real problem is within.
What I said is true. I am familiar with the literature on Islām by non-Muslim scholars and the hate literature (much of it by evangelical Christians). It is like they are talking about two different people.
albedo wrote:
If an individual has neurosis, they can believe that most of their problems are the result of some outside conspiracy against them. Also they will also extend this to blame unrelated event (e.g. Princess Diana death) on conspiracies too. It is an illness, that you have to break out of. it takes willpower and self-realization.
I am a sociologist, not a psychologist or psychiatrist. I don't explain the world using diagnostic categories.
05 Aug 2013, 3:10 pm
