God does nor exist nor do gods exist!
15 Dec 2014, 3:09 am
Janissy wrote:
A classic experiment called the Miller-Urey experiment shows that under certain conditions, amino acids can form "by random accident". The caveat is that these conditions have to be met, but once they are, the "random accident" of chemicals bumping into each other and creating amino acids (building blocks of protein) shoots up to near certainty. The conditions are an abundance of certain chemicals in the presence of considerable energy flying about. The very active young earth had these conditions.
You need to find a more impartial review of the MUX to get a more realistic assessment of how they got those insignificant results.Just briefly; they assumed the primitive atmosphere was what they required to give the results they desired
their apparatus had traps in it to protect their products from being destroyed by the very process that created them
a simple amino acid is light years away from even a simple protein.
There's much more to this business of what comprises a living organism that may come up as this discussion proceeds.
DentArthurDent
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15 Dec 2014, 3:48 am
Oldavid wrote:
Orrite. Let's try to be more specific about what entropy is. As in the Second Law of Thermodynamics expression of entropy it is the tendency of order toward chaos and the tendency for potential to be dissipated.
Nothing will happen in nature unless there is a process from a higher potential to a lower potential. All our machines and natural phenomena only work because of that. Even a thunderstorm is ultimately a dissipation of energy from the Sun that is collected in the atmosphere. Even the Sun is "using up" her potential by dissipating enormous amounts of matter and energy into space. Nature runs on entropy.
Order is more interesting "stuff" as it a metaphysical "thing". Any wonderfully diligent home manager will tell you that disorder and chaos happen automatically and naturally, and that it takes constant effort, intellect and will on her part to restore or maintain order. Nature (gradually) "eats up" and dissipates order that can only be created by the intellect to conceive it, the power to do it and the will to want it.
(There, that should be another cat in the pigeon coop).
Nothing will happen in nature unless there is a process from a higher potential to a lower potential. All our machines and natural phenomena only work because of that. Even a thunderstorm is ultimately a dissipation of energy from the Sun that is collected in the atmosphere. Even the Sun is "using up" her potential by dissipating enormous amounts of matter and energy into space. Nature runs on entropy.
Order is more interesting "stuff" as it a metaphysical "thing". Any wonderfully diligent home manager will tell you that disorder and chaos happen automatically and naturally, and that it takes constant effort, intellect and will on her part to restore or maintain order. Nature (gradually) "eats up" and dissipates order that can only be created by the intellect to conceive it, the power to do it and the will to want it.
(There, that should be another cat in the pigeon coop).
I really dont think you get it, you do not seem to understand the full nature of the amount of energy coming from the sun nor the amount of energy required for the evolution of all life on this planet. I can furnish you with the maths if you like, but essentially the the amount of entropy for all lifeforms on the planet would be around -302 j/k yet the ammount of energy coming into the system from the sun is around 420 x 10 to the power of 12 J/K. In short your argument is nonsense. Areas of the universe can decrease in entropy so long as other areas increase by a greater amount, entropy is not universal in the sense of the a steady increase throughout all areas of the universe. Another canard you are guilty of is to assume evolution is all about increased complexity, it is not, it is about adaptability. And on a final note it's also necessary to deal with the canard that entropy equals 'disorder'. This is a non-rigorous view of entropy that scientists engaged in precise work discarded some time ago. Not least because there are documented examples of systems that have a precisely calculated entropy increase after spontaneously self-organising into well-defined structures. Phospholipids are the classic example of such a system - a suspension of phospholipids in aqueous solution will spontaneously self-assemble into structures such as micelles, bilayer sheets and liposomes upon receiving an energy input consisting of nothing more than gentle agitation. To Quote a paper from 1998
Gentle Force Of Entropy Bridges Disciplines by David Kestenbaum, Science, 279: 1849 (20th March 1998)
Kestenbaum, 1998 wrote:Normally, entropy is a force of disorder rather than organization. But physicists have recently explored the ways in which an increase in entropy in one part of a system can force another part into greater order. The findings have rekindled speculation that living cells might take advantage of this little-known trick of physics.
And from wikibooks:Structural Biochemistry/Lipids/Micelles
Micelles form spontaneously in water, as stated above this spontaneous arrangement is due to the amphipatic nature of the molecule. The driving force for this arrangement is the hydrophobic interactions the molecules experience. When the hydrophobic tails are not sequestered from water this results in in the water forming an organized cage around the hydrophobic tail and this entropy is unfavorable. However, when the lipids form micelles the hydrophobic tails interact with each other, and this interaction releases water from the hydrophobic tail and this increases the disorder of the system, and this is increase in entropy is favorable
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15 Dec 2014, 7:36 am
Very nice description of the action of soap, Arty.
If you are claiming (as you lot invariably do) that "evolution" is powered by an input of energy from the Sun then let's speed up the process by putting a lab rat into an electric arc (plenty of externally supplied energy (light and heat)) and turn it into a super-smart spaceman. I contend that all you'll get is a vaporised lab-rat.
Order is a serious business. It's not just a blind, random, haphazard input of energy... it is the product of intellect and will as well. Any practical home manager will affirm that a bomb (that releases much energy in a short time) will not contribute anything to her desire for order in her domain. (Mothers and wives are wonderful things for demanding and perpetuating order. Civilisation could not exist without them).
You can put up as many figures as you like concerning the heat/light coming from the Sun. It will not ever cause something that does not exist to cause itself to exist.
15 Dec 2014, 8:29 am
I present to everyone Oldavid!
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DentArthurDent
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15 Dec 2014, 3:25 pm
Oldavid wrote:
Very nice description of the action of soap, Arty.
If you are claiming (as you lot invariably do) that "evolution" is powered by an input of energy from the Sun then let's speed up the process by putting a lab rat into an electric arc (plenty of externally supplied energy (light and heat)) and turn it into a super-smart spaceman. I contend that all you'll get is a vaporised lab-rat.
Order is a serious business. It's not just a blind, random, haphazard input of energy... it is the product of intellect and will as well. Any practical home manager will affirm that a bomb (that releases much energy in a short time) will not contribute anything to her desire for order in her domain. (Mothers and wives are wonderful things for demanding and perpetuating order. Civilisation could not exist without them).
You can put up as many figures as you like concerning the heat/light coming from the Sun. It will not ever cause something that does not exist to cause itself to exist.
If you are claiming (as you lot invariably do) that "evolution" is powered by an input of energy from the Sun then let's speed up the process by putting a lab rat into an electric arc (plenty of externally supplied energy (light and heat)) and turn it into a super-smart spaceman. I contend that all you'll get is a vaporised lab-rat.
Order is a serious business. It's not just a blind, random, haphazard input of energy... it is the product of intellect and will as well. Any practical home manager will affirm that a bomb (that releases much energy in a short time) will not contribute anything to her desire for order in her domain. (Mothers and wives are wonderful things for demanding and perpetuating order. Civilisation could not exist without them).
You can put up as many figures as you like concerning the heat/light coming from the Sun. It will not ever cause something that does not exist to cause itself to exist.
Really is this the best you can do defending your assertion that entropy falsifies evolution, really? I thought you had been doing this for years and were going to "cut the legs off" our arguments. Instead you fall back to ridiculous statements and nonsense. I see like so many other uninformed creationists you bring up the canard of random and haphazard in relation to evolution, really, you still have not learnt enough in your "years of arguing against evolution" that this concept is erroneous and very easily pulled apart. Like I said in a previous post.
PATHETIC
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15 Dec 2014, 4:04 pm
Oldavid wrote:
Just briefly; they assumed the primitive atmosphere was what they required to give the results they desired
their apparatus had traps in it to protect their products from being destroyed by the very process that created them
a simple amino acid is light years away from even a simple protein.
.
It's not a single step from amino acid to protein but it's not light years either.
http://www.gwu.edu/~darwin/BiSc151/Origin/origin.html
Quote:
(from link) To make a protein, the amino acids attach COOH end of one to the NH3 end of another. To do so, they must lose a molecule of water. Amino acids aren't likely to link up with one another and form such chains on their own and the reaction rarely happens spontaneously
" Amino acids aren't likely to link up with one another and form such chains on their own and the reaction rarely happens spontaneously" is, I am guessing, your point. But there's this:
Quote:
(from link) Furthermore, it is unlikely that a water-producing reaction would occur if the amino acids are in water. (Remember: In the living cell, specific enzymes catalyze these dehydration reactions. But we don't have enzymes yet!)
Perhaps organic polymers were synthesized and accumulated on rock or clay surfaces. If the conditions are hot and dry enough, the water molecule can be lost and amino acids can join.
Using this process, Sidney Fox and his research group at the University of Miami have formed substances like proteins, called protenoids, by drying warm mixtures of amino acids. They suggest that volcanic activity could have generated high temperature to form proteins on the early Earth, even if only temporarily and locally. It is possible to imagine waves or rain splashing dilute solutions of chemicals onto fresh lava or other hot rocks on the early earth and then rinsing proteinoids back into the water.
Problem with this idea: High temperatures pose a problem, because organic molecules tend to break down as they are heated.
An alternative idea suggests that clay, even cool clay, may have been used. Clay has some interesting properties:
1. It has a slight charge that can attract and hold other molecules.
2. Clays may contained small amounts of metal atoms, such as copper, iron, or zinc. These metal atoms function as catalysts facilitating the dehydration reactions that link amino acids together.
3. Clay also seems to be able to store energy absorbed from radioactive decay and then discharged this energy at times when the clay changes temperature or degree of dehydration.
Perhaps organic polymers were synthesized and accumulated on rock or clay surfaces. If the conditions are hot and dry enough, the water molecule can be lost and amino acids can join.
Using this process, Sidney Fox and his research group at the University of Miami have formed substances like proteins, called protenoids, by drying warm mixtures of amino acids. They suggest that volcanic activity could have generated high temperature to form proteins on the early Earth, even if only temporarily and locally. It is possible to imagine waves or rain splashing dilute solutions of chemicals onto fresh lava or other hot rocks on the early earth and then rinsing proteinoids back into the water.
Problem with this idea: High temperatures pose a problem, because organic molecules tend to break down as they are heated.
An alternative idea suggests that clay, even cool clay, may have been used. Clay has some interesting properties:
1. It has a slight charge that can attract and hold other molecules.
2. Clays may contained small amounts of metal atoms, such as copper, iron, or zinc. These metal atoms function as catalysts facilitating the dehydration reactions that link amino acids together.
3. Clay also seems to be able to store energy absorbed from radioactive decay and then discharged this energy at times when the clay changes temperature or degree of dehydration.
It's not so impossible. It requires specific conditions but those conditions existed. Thus Earth is sometimes called The Goldilocks Planet.
15 Dec 2014, 6:57 pm
DentArthurDent wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Very nice description of the action of soap, Arty.
If you are claiming (as you lot invariably do) that "evolution" is powered by an input of energy from the Sun then let's speed up the process by putting a lab rat into an electric arc (plenty of externally supplied energy (light and heat)) and turn it into a super-smart spaceman. I contend that all you'll get is a vaporised lab-rat.
Order is a serious business. It's not just a blind, random, haphazard input of energy... it is the product of intellect and will as well. Any practical home manager will affirm that a bomb (that releases much energy in a short time) will not contribute anything to her desire for order in her domain. (Mothers and wives are wonderful things for demanding and perpetuating order. Civilisation could not exist without them).
You can put up as many figures as you like concerning the heat/light coming from the Sun. It will not ever cause something that does not exist to cause itself to exist.
If you are claiming (as you lot invariably do) that "evolution" is powered by an input of energy from the Sun then let's speed up the process by putting a lab rat into an electric arc (plenty of externally supplied energy (light and heat)) and turn it into a super-smart spaceman. I contend that all you'll get is a vaporised lab-rat.
Order is a serious business. It's not just a blind, random, haphazard input of energy... it is the product of intellect and will as well. Any practical home manager will affirm that a bomb (that releases much energy in a short time) will not contribute anything to her desire for order in her domain. (Mothers and wives are wonderful things for demanding and perpetuating order. Civilisation could not exist without them).
You can put up as many figures as you like concerning the heat/light coming from the Sun. It will not ever cause something that does not exist to cause itself to exist.
Really is this the best you can do defending your assertion that entropy falsifies evolution, really? I thought you had been doing this for years and were going to "cut the legs off" our arguments. Instead you fall back to ridiculous statements and nonsense. I see like so many other uninformed creationists you bring up the canard of random and haphazard in relation to evolution, really, you still have not learnt enough in your "years of arguing against evolution" that this concept is erroneous and very easily pulled apart. Like I said in a previous post.
PATHETIC
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15 Dec 2014, 7:32 pm
Lukecash12 wrote:
1401b wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
Persimmonpudding wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
Well let's get started then:
1. וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם בְּצַלְמוֹ, בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֹתוֹ: זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה, בָּרָא אֹתָם.
?ō·ṯām. bā·rā ū·nə·qê·ḇāh zā·ḵār ?ō·ṯōw; bā·rā ?ĕ·lō·hîm bə·ṣe·lem bə·ṣal·mōw,
I've never been able to read Hebrew without risking tearing out my vocal chords.1. וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם בְּצַלְמוֹ, בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֹתוֹ: זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה, בָּרָא אֹתָם.
?ō·ṯām. bā·rā ū·nə·qê·ḇāh zā·ḵār ?ō·ṯōw; bā·rā ?ĕ·lō·hîm bə·ṣe·lem bə·ṣal·mōw,
Quote:
Now let's look at three key words used here: elohim, beselem, and besalmow. Elohim was a descriptive name given for God which means "one who holds dominion". Beselem means "a representation of". Besalmow means "a representation of the aforementioned". Now what does this mean? What it means is that what we are a representation of is explicitly what elohim is a descriptor of. Because we as a species have dominion over our environment, that makes us moral actors.
Poor argument. The meaning of "Elohim," to the ancient Hebrews, had a meaning relatively close to that of Ba'al, the key term being embodied in the lamedh. However, where Ba'al refers to a "house god," which is what the bet really refers to, aleph suggests a reference to a personal god, particularly one associated with comfort and familiarity.Therefore "El" would simply mean "My kindly lord."
Mem refers to a body of water, theoretically.
The yodh serves as a prefix to the mem, modifying it to the third-person singular. This suggests that "My kindly lord" is not composed of water but does something "with" water.
Assuming we understand he to mean "that" or something similar, we could render the translation of it thus possibly:
"My kindly lord that rules over water."
Which tends to support my own view that this tale might have been descended from an ancient ruler who engineered an irrigation system that was relatively advanced for the time.
This is also what makes the linkage of Enki with El Shaddai so plausible, since Enki is also a god tied to water and has similar myths associated with him. It's all postulation and guesswork, but it's a step up from w*king, I figure.
1. You're using cognates in language to say that the two are the same difference. My main issue with that is that you won't find me a single lexicon or concordance that will render the literal meaning of elohim that way. I'm basing my own understanding of it from concordances like Smith's, Thayer and Vine's, Strong's, etc. so I'd like to see if you have a decent source of your own.
2. The entire OT goes out to establish that this is a culture of people whose most prominent literature is vehemently against syncretism. Every example of syncretism is bemoaned and you expect us to believe your interpretation? You're trying to insert ideas into and draw comparisons from a polytheistic to a monotheistic religion.
wut?
btw, Persimmonpudding, love that bit about ..
"My kindly lord that rules over water."
Which tends to support my own view that this tale might have been descended from an ancient ruler who engineered an irrigation system that was relatively advanced for the time.
That's brilliant and insightful, unfortunately it was also Open-Minded which means you're a HERETIC!!!11!1
The only problem with that is that however brilliant and insightful it seems, in the real world facts matter and he doesn't seem to be in agreement with the majority of linguistic scholars. Some of his grammatical observations weren't even correct, let alone his definitions.
I'm happy for you Lukecash12, but your reply seems to simply say, "no he's not! he'z dumm!" which is neither nice nor helpful, to anyone.
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(14.01.b) cogito ergo sum confusus
15 Dec 2014, 8:04 pm
Naturalist wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I think God exists as a philosophical concept. This concept is essential to some people's survival. This is why I don't argue existence/nonexistence too vociferously.
Ditto the above. Technically you cannot argue that God / gods do not exist, since at the very least they exist as cultural constructs. Says the not-religiously-inclined anthropologist employed by an evolutionary biologist.
From an evolutionary perspective, positive thinking is a psychological asset which aids in survival. For some individuals, religion / faith is a framework for constructing positive thought patterns. So it does serve a purpose, else it would never have been brought to existence in the first place. (Sorry Dawkins, I am with E. O. Wilson on this one.)
I agree, of course it did.
But does it still?
It seems that with our tech advances and massively improved standard of living and our ability to solve previously "impossible" problems--the advantages of religion(s) has dwindled but the disadvantages have strongly remained.
Primarily the disadvantage of inhibiting all the things that minimize religion's benefit as an evolutionary "handhold." (tech advances and massively improved standard of living and our ability to solve previously "impossible" problems)
The inhibitions are caused through (disempowering) guilt, lack of motivation through abdication of responsibility (god will eventually solve everything) and social censuring (eliminating possible new solutions).
Meaning perhaps we've "evolutionarily" moved past the advantage of the handhold that religion had given us and blindly refusing to release our (panic?) grip to that rock-hold will make it impossible for us to climb up further.
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(14.01.b) cogito ergo sum confusus
15 Dec 2014, 8:10 pm
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15 Dec 2014, 8:25 pm
Oldavid wrote:
Good- oh, fellas. Now we're getting a firm proposition of one of your beliefs that I can get my teeth into... so called "evolution", but, more specifically, Darwinism.
I will preface my remarks by noting that evolution does occur, but always and only in the direction of entropy.
The fashionable notion of Darwinist evolution is philosophically, physically, chemically, biologically, mathematically impossible. It contradicts all relevant, known Natural Laws and probabilities. It is a giant hoax designed to capture the imagination of giant egos connected to small minds.
Now let's have your flurry of indignation then we can get around to the relevant science and logic of it all.
I will preface my remarks by noting that evolution does occur, but always and only in the direction of entropy.
The fashionable notion of Darwinist evolution is philosophically, physically, chemically, biologically, mathematically impossible. It contradicts all relevant, known Natural Laws and probabilities. It is a giant hoax designed to capture the imagination of giant egos connected to small minds.
Now let's have your flurry of indignation then we can get around to the relevant science and logic of it all.
After reading your other posts, I cannot believe you actually said this.
I CAN believe that you've argued with lots and lots of people, and I believe that YOU believe you were arguing what ever topic it is that you're stuck on, which at first I thought was about a lack of god.
I'm not so sure anyone else knew what you were arguing with them about.
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(14.01.b) cogito ergo sum confusus
15 Dec 2014, 8:32 pm
trollcatman wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
That there are basic similarities in the genetic makeup of all living organisms doesn't prove anything except that it's a good system that works. It does not make the impossible possible. It does not even imply that one organism ever did, or could, turn itself into every other organism.
Common descent is pretty well established. There so many things all pointing in the same direction, such as endogenous retroviruses, similarities in morphology (shape of hip bones of birds and stuff like that), the distribution of species, and then there is speciation like nylon eating bacteria.
Seriously!!
This is one of the most fascinating things I've ever heard on here!
You rock.
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DentArthurDent
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15 Dec 2014, 8:47 pm
AspieOtaku wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Very nice description of the action of soap, Arty.
If you are claiming (as you lot invariably do) that "evolution" is powered by an input of energy from the Sun then let's speed up the process by putting a lab rat into an electric arc (plenty of externally supplied energy (light and heat)) and turn it into a super-smart spaceman. I contend that all you'll get is a vaporised lab-rat.
Order is a serious business. It's not just a blind, random, haphazard input of energy... it is the product of intellect and will as well. Any practical home manager will affirm that a bomb (that releases much energy in a short time) will not contribute anything to her desire for order in her domain. (Mothers and wives are wonderful things for demanding and perpetuating order. Civilisation could not exist without them).
You can put up as many figures as you like concerning the heat/light coming from the Sun. It will not ever cause something that does not exist to cause itself to exist.
If you are claiming (as you lot invariably do) that "evolution" is powered by an input of energy from the Sun then let's speed up the process by putting a lab rat into an electric arc (plenty of externally supplied energy (light and heat)) and turn it into a super-smart spaceman. I contend that all you'll get is a vaporised lab-rat.
Order is a serious business. It's not just a blind, random, haphazard input of energy... it is the product of intellect and will as well. Any practical home manager will affirm that a bomb (that releases much energy in a short time) will not contribute anything to her desire for order in her domain. (Mothers and wives are wonderful things for demanding and perpetuating order. Civilisation could not exist without them).
You can put up as many figures as you like concerning the heat/light coming from the Sun. It will not ever cause something that does not exist to cause itself to exist.
Really is this the best you can do defending your assertion that entropy falsifies evolution, really? I thought you had been doing this for years and were going to "cut the legs off" our arguments. Instead you fall back to ridiculous statements and nonsense. I see like so many other uninformed creationists you bring up the canard of random and haphazard in relation to evolution, really, you still have not learnt enough in your "years of arguing against evolution" that this concept is erroneous and very easily pulled apart. Like I said in a previous post.
PATHETIC
Yep to use his own cat and pigeons metaphor, his premises are rather like a decrepit, old, morbidly obese cat whose teeth and claws are worn away, suffering the indignity of pigeons pecking grain from the top of its head, whilst it vainly tries to swat them away.
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15 Dec 2014, 9:17 pm
The statistical probability of one specific molecule bumping into another specific molecule in all the universe is so very low that it is really an impossibility.
Therefore if you trip and fall, you cannot hit the ground, or the planet, or in fact anything else because the odds of even one of your molecules hitting even one single planet molecule (there are quadtrillions of planets!) are just way to small to exist!
Therefore if you get up with a broken arm it is because god broke your arm, not because you hit a planet that you mathematically couldn't have hit.
Therefore a broken arm is a test of your faith in god, NOT a test of your skateboarding ability, nor gravity (because gravity is impossible, as I have just shown).
Therefore your skateboarding ability is perfect (no need for all that hard work practicing!) You sooo rock!
Except that people actually do hit the planet and that's because people and planets have so many molecules. (and proximity)
Do you understand the "odds" now?
_________________
(14.01.b) cogito ergo sum confusus
15 Dec 2014, 9:48 pm
DentArthurDent wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Very nice description of the action of soap, Arty.
If you are claiming (as you lot invariably do) that "evolution" is powered by an input of energy from the Sun then let's speed up the process by putting a lab rat into an electric arc (plenty of externally supplied energy (light and heat)) and turn it into a super-smart spaceman. I contend that all you'll get is a vaporised lab-rat.
Order is a serious business. It's not just a blind, random, haphazard input of energy... it is the product of intellect and will as well. Any practical home manager will affirm that a bomb (that releases much energy in a short time) will not contribute anything to her desire for order in her domain. (Mothers and wives are wonderful things for demanding and perpetuating order. Civilisation could not exist without them).
You can put up as many figures as you like concerning the heat/light coming from the Sun. It will not ever cause something that does not exist to cause itself to exist.
If you are claiming (as you lot invariably do) that "evolution" is powered by an input of energy from the Sun then let's speed up the process by putting a lab rat into an electric arc (plenty of externally supplied energy (light and heat)) and turn it into a super-smart spaceman. I contend that all you'll get is a vaporised lab-rat.
Order is a serious business. It's not just a blind, random, haphazard input of energy... it is the product of intellect and will as well. Any practical home manager will affirm that a bomb (that releases much energy in a short time) will not contribute anything to her desire for order in her domain. (Mothers and wives are wonderful things for demanding and perpetuating order. Civilisation could not exist without them).
You can put up as many figures as you like concerning the heat/light coming from the Sun. It will not ever cause something that does not exist to cause itself to exist.
Really is this the best you can do defending your assertion that entropy falsifies evolution, really? I thought you had been doing this for years and were going to "cut the legs off" our arguments. Instead you fall back to ridiculous statements and nonsense. I see like so many other uninformed creationists you bring up the canard of random and haphazard in relation to evolution, really, you still have not learnt enough in your "years of arguing against evolution" that this concept is erroneous and very easily pulled apart. Like I said in a previous post.
PATHETIC
Yep to use his own cat and pigeons metaphor, his premises are rather like a decrepit, old, morbidly obese cat whose teeth and claws are worn away, suffering the indignity of pigeons pecking grain from the top of its head, whilst it vainly tries to swat them away.
_________________
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You are very likely an aspie
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