Been thinking about what happened in France...

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What I secretly wondered, but didn't want to type in the midst of the most intense CH hysteria, is did the French government kindly request CH staff tone it down only to be defiantly told to get lost, and then felt it was, perhaps a threat to national security, may stir animosity between the Islamists and the Jews of France? The Jews were already targeted for terror there in which something like seven people died in an attack but no one million Charlie march afterward...

I did read somewhere online a french politician asked the magazine before it published Mohammed cartoons in 2012 if they thought it would be the intelligent thing to do...so some in France seems to be approaching the magazine with second thoughts and reconsideration prior to publishing the controversial cartoons.

Now the French government is financing this magazine in a way it didn't do before...will it have more to say about what goes into the content?

@ Eric76: I don't agree! As much as I applaud a leader like Aboutaleb, who also happens to be a Muslim, to speak out against the atrocity ... I think that in his case you hear more of a politician than an islamic leader. It seems as if he forgets how the generation of young muslims who turn terrorist are Dutch natives! But how were they raised? Picture this: it's common for the girls having to stay home to help their mothers and the boys getting kicked out of the door to live on the streets, only to get back in at the end of the day. What do they get on the streets of their 'ghettos'? Drugs, violence ... nothing positive. And when they end up in prison, they get brainwashed by extremists. Just read about the prison time of the perpetrators of the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

Like I said before: Dyab Abou JahJah is right ... now is the time to offer these young people something or we'll end up with a lost generation or worse. Not just a good education, but also a chance to let them really integrate. Even when these youngsters have a good education and apply for a job ... as soon as they see an Arab name, the application ends in the bottom drawer.

Aboutaleb seems to forget that kicking them out is no solution: they were born and raised here. Their so-called homeland has even less to offer.
But the Dutch government didn't take any measures either to integrate their parents into society**. Because they were never meant to stay or had such agreements with the home country that they didn't have to learn the language. That's why a bastard like Erdogan (Turkish president) is able to say to Turks in Germany that they shouldn't be forced to learn German, so they can cherish their own culture and not integrate!
I think that the problem with the double nationalities doesn't help either. People are not able to get rid of their original passport (both Moroccan or Turkish people) because they are considered Turkish/Moroccan, but living in a different country.
(it may seem strange for me to jump from Dutch to German or French situations, but I think the problem is the same)


** In an interview a french writer, Renaud Camus, explains why France isn't a land of immigration. I don't agree, but he does have an interesting point about individuals/peoples. I have to look further into it, but I'm pretty sure it could apply to a lot of European countries that relied heavily on foreign workforces/immigration:

Source: ://ironmarch.org/index.php?/topic/1351-france-is-at-war-interview-with-renaud-camus/

Good question. As I said in another thread, it was the French government who closed down Hara-Kiri (pre-Charlie Hebdo) when they had the opportunity. It is strange to see how they now regard them as THE symbol of free speech. It just doesn't add up.

I don't think they really have a say about what goes into the content, but I'm pretty sure they won't be sitting back either and let it all happen. I would expect the staff of CH to rather shut the whole operation down than make any consessions ... certainly not bow down to pressure. They are too attached to their freedom ...

By the way ... did you hear about the arrest of the stand-up comedian Dieudonné M'bala M'bala? He's quite controversial and has now been arrested for 'glorification of terrorism' ... so where has the freedom speech suddenly gone? French government seems to have lost it sense of humour for sure ...

It's the people of France who are demanding free speech, the government is busy putting more cops on the streets and finding ways to militarize the French state.

Why should it be the government's job to integrate them into society? If they want to enter the Dutch society, they need to put out the effort to do so. The notion that the Dutch government owes it to them is appalling.

It seems that the rejection of free speech is intentional among certain individuals and groups, wouldn't you say?

Absolute freedom of speech has never existed anywhere as far as I know. The line is commonly drawn when someone is threatening the fundamental rights of others, either directly or by encouraging such behaviour. Death threats is one form of speech that is considered a criminal offence. Several people have been arrested: "France announced Wednesday that 54 people had been arrested since the Paris terror attacks in a country-wide crackdown on hate speech, anti-Semitism and the glorification of terrorism."

How do you know it's not the government's "job."

What government's number one responsibility should be is making life easier for its citizens by helping them. That is what makes countries great. It is the difference between really awful places to live and nice ones. When the government helps people integrate, we all benefit from it. It helps all of us. It results in a higher standard of living, more good feeling among members of a Republic.

In theory, perhaps, but it doesn't seem to work that way in reality.

It does work that way all the time. People just take it for granted. Just go to developing countries, you will see the opposite and you most likely won't be comfortable with it.

It probably has more to do with cultural discrepancies than government involvement, or lack thereof.

We have entirely different ideas about the purpose and function of government. Making life easier for its citizens should never be a function of government. The primary purposes of government is to defend the country and to create laws and a justice system -- in other words, to defend the rights of its citizens.

Having an easy life is not a right of citizens, but considering your posts on that other thread, it does not surprise me at all that you might think it is. You are wrong.

Promote the general welfare is in the Preamble of the US constitution so evidently, someone thought it important enough to draw attention to government's role in making sure all of us are cared for.

Integrating people into society IS a form of defense. If you really want to create a multi-cultural society, you don't want to create a state that looks like a patchwork of people. Just look at for instance former Yugoslavia: a patchwork of several groups ... and it didn't work. Same goes for Czechoslovakia, but they seperated in a good way.
If there's no integration, you'll end up with ghettos full of foreign people (like the French banlieues). And remember: integration doesn't just mean the new citizens have to adjust, also the old ones. It's an active process.

And even if you think it's not the task of the government, why do they actually force them to integrate now? Because they finally saw what they did wrong in the years before! So they DO take it as their duty ...




You state that you disagree about things, but this sounds like it's getting personal. Have some courtesy and stick to the topic! If you assume that she already will take a certain stance then the same goes for you. It's still ok to discuss things ... keep an open mind!

Cartoonists can write what they want. I think the cartoons are stupid and shallow but that's my opinion. Doesn't mean they deserved the attack obviously.

However, the way toward peace is empathy and understanding. How many Muslims have the US killed? How many westerners have been killed by Muslims? Think about it. Perhaps the US should own up to some of its faults rather than always claiming the high ground. When we put all the blame on Islam, we are just reinforcing their beliefs that the Western society is against all Muslims which makes it easier for them to recruit susceptible vulernable people.

When a group of people feels oppressed over a long enough period of the time, the tendency is for members of the group to lash out against threats, whether they are real or imaginary. I think it is important for people to think about this. The way to peace is not unbridled freedom of speech and the ability to say "f**k it, I can say what I want." It's not intelligent. More intelligent methods need to be used to get jihadists to see the light.