Halloween costume PC rules: Good idea or[expletive removed]?

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Jacoby
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29 Oct 2015, 8:52 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
you have a right to an opinion, people have a right to call your opinion stupid

it's a false equivalency that exposes your own biases here

I would like an example of how someone that is for free speech is actually against free speech, I don't understand.


When those people who call your opinion stupid also attempt to prevent you from expressing your opinion, they are not for "free speech."


How is anybody ever tried to prevent you from expressing your opinion? Provide one example please. Pretty please, I said please! I could dig thru the hundreds maybe of thousands of other examples with the shoe on the other foot because it has and always has been totalitarian language control enforce up on academia and then the rest of society. Free speech does not exist on our college campuses anymore which are ruled by arbitrary kangaroo courts, an off color comment can get you expelled or fired from your job. They're even calling the term 'politically correct' a microaggression now, it's hilarious.

'And call me an extremist for free speech all you want, I'd wear that as a badge. As Goldwater said "extremism is the defense of liberty is no vice!"


Well, let's see......

I've lost count of the number of times of anti-PC a$$bags who demand I "shut-up" about any attempt to analyze art or culture, and place it in a wider socio-political context because, ostensibly, even discussing the influence of race, sex, or class is, "OMG SO PC SHUT UP SHUT UP."

The recent kerfuffle with Eli Roth's "Green Inferno" was equal parts extremely entertaining and extremely depressing as the anti-PC hordes went ape sh_t over a fake petition, and then proceeded to pounce on any movie critic who dared to suggest that basing a movie on out-dated, and possibly harmful, stereotypes of native people wasn't the best approach.

Extremists are fools. Full stop.


And what are you asking of people that offend you? Think about it, I think you're pretty smart...


That's the point:

I'm not "asking" anything of anyone.

If you're offended by the fact that people are having a conversation about the impact of negative stereotypes on the greater whole of society, and think these sort of discussions should never happen, you should probably reassess your position on "free speech."


I'm not offended by the discussion at all, I love debating but I just have no problem saying your hurt feelings are your own problem if the solution is the infringe upon the rights of others. There is a lot more than a "polite discussion" going on, this is a war. A war on free speech, a war on freedom of expression, no where is more evident of than our nation's institutions of "higher education" which run kangaroo courts than can get you expelled or fired or at the very least ostracized with no due process or legal representation. Speech crimes are bad enough being trialed in front of these "people's tribunals" but they actually hear cases about real crimes as well. All the leftists in this country beat off to western and especially northern Europe where they have no free speech and offensive speech can quite literally send you to prison. The implications of your beliefs are clear, that is where they lead to and I don't intend to ever let this country reach that place.

Perhaps if you guys don't like free speech you should move to China or Cuba, nobody is ever offended there.

You were in the military weren't you XFilesGeek? Didn't you take an oath the defend and protect our constitution against all enemies; foreign and domestic?



XFilesGeek
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29 Oct 2015, 8:59 am

Jacoby wrote:

I'm not offended by the discussion at all, I love debating but I just have no problem saying your hurt feelings are your own problem if the solution is the infringe upon the rights of others. There is a lot more than a "polite discussion" going on, this is a war. A war on free speech, a war on freedom of expression, no where is more evident of than our nation's institutions of "higher education" which run kangaroo courts than can get you expelled or fired or at the very least ostracized with no due process or legal representation. Speech crimes are bad enough being trialed in front of these "people's tribunals" but they actually hear cases about real crimes as well. All the leftists in this country beat off to western and especially northern Europe where they have no free speech and offensive speech can quite literally send you to prison. The implications of your beliefs are clear, that is where they lead to and I don't intend to ever let this country reach that place.

Perhaps if you guys don't like free speech you should move to China or Cuba, nobody is ever offended there.

You were in the military weren't you XFilesGeek? Didn't you take an oath the defend and protect our constitution against all enemies; foreign and domestic?


I did.

And if you recall, I've stated before that I don't like the rabidly "pro-PC" types either; therefore, I'm not the least bit fond of the, "OMG OMG EVERYTHING IS SO OFFENSIVE!" people either.

I advocate level-headed, intelligence discussion of social issues, sans drama and hyperbole.


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29 Oct 2015, 10:17 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
Do people really not see anything wrong with that? When someone in a position of greater social power mocks someone of lesser social power, it is considered threatening. It sends a message that they can be mocked, and will be simply for being who they are. It is a display of power intended to intimidate and oppress. Why would any ethical, moral person do - or defend - such actions?


I see, but freedom of expression trumps hurt feelings.

Shouldn't we ban LGBT customes, because they offend some religious people?

Shouldn't these customes be banned ...
Image
Image


There is a vast difference in the level of social privilege and power. Conservative religious folks have actually worked toward reducing the legal equality of LGBT people, not to mention keel dragged them behind pick up trucks until dead.


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Jacoby
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29 Oct 2015, 10:28 am

Edenthiel wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
Do people really not see anything wrong with that? When someone in a position of greater social power mocks someone of lesser social power, it is considered threatening. It sends a message that they can be mocked, and will be simply for being who they are. It is a display of power intended to intimidate and oppress. Why would any ethical, moral person do - or defend - such actions?


I see, but freedom of expression trumps hurt feelings.

Shouldn't we ban LGBT customes, because they offend some religious people?

Shouldn't these customes be banned ...
Image
Image


There is a vast difference in the level of social privilege and power. Conservative religious folks have actually worked toward reducing the legal equality of LGBT people, not to mention keel dragged them behind pick up trucks until dead.


So feelings only matter when you are a part of a special club? Rights are universal, they don't apply to some people and not to others. We're not equal + 1. The whole point of gays dressing up like that is to be provocative and that is their right, you can personally find it distasteful and even a lot of gays but it analogs it perfectly. Social privilege and power is such a nonsense term, you are an individual not a group. Groups have no rights, individuals have rights. Some of the most powerful socially privileged men and women in the world are gay, some of the most disadvantaged people in the world are the most religiously conservative, we have to look at people as individuals because judging people by groups is what leads to prejudice, racism, homophobia, genocide.



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29 Oct 2015, 12:44 pm

Jacoby wrote:
How is anybody ever tried to prevent you from expressing your opinion? Provide one example please. Pretty please, I said please! I could dig thru the hundreds maybe of thousands of other examples with the shoe on the other foot because it has and always has been totalitarian language control enforce up on academia and then the rest of society. Free speech does not exist on our college campuses anymore which are ruled by arbitrary kangaroo courts, an off color comment can get you expelled or fired from your job. They're even calling the term 'politically correct' a microaggression now, it's hilarious.

'And call me an extremist for free speech all you want, I'd wear that as a badge. As Goldwater said "extremism is the defense of liberty is no vice!"

I hear this crap all the time... Do you have ANY first hand experience with what discourse is like on an actual College Campus?

I do, and I can say, from my experience, there's quite a diversity of opinion and healthy debate about social issues. As long as you can defend your position with logic and facts there's no need to fear reprisals of any sort.

Your position is paranoid fantasy. Really.


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GoonSquad
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29 Oct 2015, 1:51 pm

Jacoby wrote:
So feelings only matter when you are a part of a special club? Rights are universal, they don't apply to some people and not to others. We're not equal + 1. The whole point of gays dressing up like that is to be provocative and that is their right, you can personally find it distasteful and even a lot of gays but it analogs it perfectly. Social privilege and power is such a nonsense term, you are an individual not a group. Groups have no rights, individuals have rights. Some of the most powerful socially privileged men and women in the world are gay, some of the most disadvantaged people in the world are the most religiously conservative, we have to look at people as individuals because judging people by groups is what leads to prejudice, racism, homophobia, genocide.

That last little bit in bold is the only accurate thing you've typed this whole thread (I suspect it was an accident :P ).

It is precisely because people put each other in groups and judge and dismiss each other by groups that we must advocate for people in groups.


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29 Oct 2015, 2:18 pm

Jacoby wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Let the kids dress up as whatever they wish. Within reason, that is -- dressing up as a dead elephant might be overdoing it a bit (1: since he wouldn't be able to move under his own power, you'd have to tie a log chain around his legs and drag him, and 2: someone might cut his tusks off and sell them to the Chinese to make medicine to help them maintain their erections).

If someone is offended, that is their problem, not yours. Give them the finger.


Dressing up as a Nazi and trick or treating at the house of a Jewish family that lost relatives to the concentration camps would be unethical, immoral and even cruel. Same if a white kid with much social and economic privilege were to dress up as a plantation owner carrying a whip and ask for candy from the neighborhood's only family whose history has been indelibly altered by slavery. Or, a bearded young man dressing up as Caitlyn Jenner and trick or treating at a house where a bullied trans kid who is on the edge of doing something drastic "just happens" to live.

Do people really not see anything wrong with that? When someone in a position of greater social power mocks someone of lesser social power, it is considered threatening. It sends a message that they can be mocked, and will be simply for being who they are. It is a display of power intended to intimidate and oppress. Why would any ethical, moral person do - or defend - such actions?


As to what I've bolded--from what I've seen, the type who like to go on and on about unlimited "freeze peach" don't have much desire to think about ethics and morals. They'd rather talk about what they feel they're entitled to (being thoughtless and treating other people like garbage for their own amusement). Ethics don't tend to matter much to people who think everyone who's ever had their feelings hurt by anyone else is "just too sensitive and needs to get over it".

The truth is, if we are going to live in a f*****g society we HAVE to have thoughts for the feelings of others. It is part of the responsibility of being an adult in a social species that lives in large groups--we have to have a thought and a care for each other, or we will never learn to live together without killing each other. If you don't care for ethics and morals and taking the existence of other people different from yourself into consideration when making your choices in life, then go live in a hermit cabin in the woods and leave the rest of us to learn how to get along with each other.


Freeze peach? Your contempt for the constitution and basic human freedom couldn't be more clearer. Have you have ever heard the saying that 'your rights end where mine begin'? Ethics and morals? What does this mean? I think it is unethical and immoral to have speech laws because speech laws as even our founders knew were a tool of despotism. Our 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

A lot of people know about the Boston Tea Party and the group of patriots who dumped the British tea into the harbor but do you know that had all dressed up as Mohawk Indians before that they did it? Something tells me the Mohawks aren't so upset about that, I think its probably small potatoes in their long line of legitimate grievances but it is pretty funny seeing modern day "liberals" squirm over it, one must be reminded that these people idolize Karl Marx much more than they do Thomas Jefferson or John Adams and despise our constitution and the protections of our GOD GIVEN rights. No, in their mind the power of government and essentially the mob determines what your rights our. That is how the greatest crimes in history have been justified.

Your feelings don't trump my rights, you are not more important me and or anyone else, we are all the same. It doesn't matter if you think you were historically maligned since guess what, so has every peoples on Earth at one time or another and unless you personally have experienced this then your "triggering" is a learned response and not one based in reality. Be courteous of other peoples feelings sure but you and I both know that much more is being asked, you can't sanitize society of everything you don't like or offends you and the people that attempt to are the worst type of authoritarian.

You know a lot of Christians are offended by homosexuals just existing openly in society let alone the government actually recognizing their marriages? They are the majority, do we care about their feelings? No, because we as INDIVIDUALS have inalienable rights endowed to us by our creator and they do not get to dictate what we as individuals do with it so long as it does not infringe on the rights of someone else. There is no "right to not be offended", I am a nice person and will hear you out but you can't or at least shouldn't be able to force your views and beliefs system on me because if you can do it one way then it can be done the other way around. I actually live by a pretty simple moral code, the non-aggression principle and voluntary association. People like me don't hurt people, it's those who think that they can control the actions of others that have and always will be the worst monsters in history.


I am not American, and here in Canada we have limits on our free speech written into our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (barring the expression of hate speech and the incitement of violence). So pretty much everything you said to me here is irrelevant. I like the limited free speech my country has, so I plan to stay here.



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29 Oct 2015, 3:12 pm

A person might enter this thread, and then proceed to personally address each of the posters on the thread who advocates unlimited free speech and tell them "if you really believe that then you're a ret*d dumbass". And then each of the people so addressed would get furious, and complain to the moderators. And then the person doing that would get banned from the site. Banned from the site because that person violated the rules of WP limiting free speech! :lol:



Last edited by naturalplastic on 29 Oct 2015, 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eric76
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29 Oct 2015, 3:31 pm

A number of years ago when I returned to college to work on my doctorate (before my committee chairman left town and I was left with a committee chairman I didn't want), there was a "wear jeans if you are gay" day.

Screw that. I wore jeans anyway. I wasn't going to let some juvenile PC bs tell me what I could and could not wear.



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29 Oct 2015, 3:58 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
A person might enter this thread, and then proceed to personally address each of the posters on the thread who advocates unlimited free speech and tell them "if you really believe that then you're a ret*d dumbass". And then each of the people so addressed would get furious, and complain to the moderators. And then the person doing that would get banned from the site. Banned from the site because that person violated the rules of WP limiting free speech! :lol:


As a moderator, this is one of the things I see a lot.

The person who started this thread didn't hesitate to come running to the moderators when someone may a disparaging remark about Southerners. :roll:


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29 Oct 2015, 4:01 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
A person might enter this thread, and then proceed to personally address each of the posters on the thread who advocates unlimited free speech and tell them "if you really believe that then you're a ret*d dumbass". And then each of the people so addressed would get furious, and complain to the moderators. And then the person doing that would get banned from the site. Banned from the site because that person violated the rules of WP limiting free speech! :lol:


As a moderator, this is one of the things I see a lot.

The person who started this thread didn't hesitate to come running to the moderators when someone may a disparaging remark about Southerners. :roll:


Guess she's just too sensitive and shouldn't have let it hurt her feelings. :lol:



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29 Oct 2015, 6:26 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
How is anybody ever tried to prevent you from expressing your opinion? Provide one example please. Pretty please, I said please! I could dig thru the hundreds maybe of thousands of other examples with the shoe on the other foot because it has and always has been totalitarian language control enforce up on academia and then the rest of society. Free speech does not exist on our college campuses anymore which are ruled by arbitrary kangaroo courts, an off color comment can get you expelled or fired from your job. They're even calling the term 'politically correct' a microaggression now, it's hilarious.

'And call me an extremist for free speech all you want, I'd wear that as a badge. As Goldwater said "extremism is the defense of liberty is no vice!"

I hear this crap all the time... Do you have ANY first hand experience with what discourse is like on an actual College Campus?

I do, and I can say, from my experience, there's quite a diversity of opinion and healthy debate about social issues. As long as you can defend your position with logic and facts there's no need to fear reprisals of any sort.

Your position is paranoid fantasy. Really.


Well I am on a college campus right now but just type in "free speech" not even college into the news column on Google and you'll get plenty of results.



Jacoby
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29 Oct 2015, 6:41 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
So feelings only matter when you are a part of a special club? Rights are universal, they don't apply to some people and not to others. We're not equal + 1. The whole point of gays dressing up like that is to be provocative and that is their right, you can personally find it distasteful and even a lot of gays but it analogs it perfectly. Social privilege and power is such a nonsense term, you are an individual not a group. Groups have no rights, individuals have rights. Some of the most powerful socially privileged men and women in the world are gay, some of the most disadvantaged people in the world are the most religiously conservative, we have to look at people as individuals because judging people by groups is what leads to prejudice, racism, homophobia, genocide.

That last little bit in bold is the only accurate thing you've typed this whole thread (I suspect it was an accident :P ).

It is precisely because people put each other in groups and judge and dismiss each other by groups that we must advocate for people in groups.


If the rights of the individual are respected then that is all there need be, groups do not or should not have rights or special privileges. Grouping and differentiating people is kind of the prerequisite to all prejudice, racism, homophobia, genocide. It's not a chicken or egg type scenario, stop thinking of people as groups and as individuals and the problems disappear. I like how Thomas Jefferson put it 'that all men are created equal, endowed by the creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.' Respect individual rights and "group rights" have no meaning.

Also I am not a coward for anybody wondering, I will debate with any of you until you are blue in the face, I enjoy this. I do not care if people disagree with me, I do not care if my opinion ruffles anybody's sensitivities if I believe I am right. If anybody wants to insult me, I can give and take. I read other peoples opinion and I take note of them, if somebody tries to explain something in constructive way then it helps me understand your position and what you might be not understanding about mine and maybe just maybe you convince me otherwise. Or we can just sling mud, I really try to go with the flow. I think I am a pretty nice guy. I'm not a snitch, I don't run to mods, I don't cry about any of you people's rude or condescending comments. If you can't take the heat, get out the kitchen, PPR should have to stickied because there are a lot of thin skinned dodos that wander in here for god know's what reason and then are shocked at the discourse of what I see as pretty civilized internet debate. Mind you I've been using the internet a pretty long time for a person my age and have participated in discussions like these half my life, I'd say this is pretty dang sanitized compared to the darker nether regions of the internet.

tl;dr come at me, bro



Jacoby
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29 Oct 2015, 6:51 pm

wilburforce wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Let the kids dress up as whatever they wish. Within reason, that is -- dressing up as a dead elephant might be overdoing it a bit (1: since he wouldn't be able to move under his own power, you'd have to tie a log chain around his legs and drag him, and 2: someone might cut his tusks off and sell them to the Chinese to make medicine to help them maintain their erections).

If someone is offended, that is their problem, not yours. Give them the finger.


Dressing up as a Nazi and trick or treating at the house of a Jewish family that lost relatives to the concentration camps would be unethical, immoral and even cruel. Same if a white kid with much social and economic privilege were to dress up as a plantation owner carrying a whip and ask for candy from the neighborhood's only family whose history has been indelibly altered by slavery. Or, a bearded young man dressing up as Caitlyn Jenner and trick or treating at a house where a bullied trans kid who is on the edge of doing something drastic "just happens" to live.

Do people really not see anything wrong with that? When someone in a position of greater social power mocks someone of lesser social power, it is considered threatening. It sends a message that they can be mocked, and will be simply for being who they are. It is a display of power intended to intimidate and oppress. Why would any ethical, moral person do - or defend - such actions?


As to what I've bolded--from what I've seen, the type who like to go on and on about unlimited "freeze peach" don't have much desire to think about ethics and morals. They'd rather talk about what they feel they're entitled to (being thoughtless and treating other people like garbage for their own amusement). Ethics don't tend to matter much to people who think everyone who's ever had their feelings hurt by anyone else is "just too sensitive and needs to get over it".

The truth is, if we are going to live in a f*****g society we HAVE to have thoughts for the feelings of others. It is part of the responsibility of being an adult in a social species that lives in large groups--we have to have a thought and a care for each other, or we will never learn to live together without killing each other. If you don't care for ethics and morals and taking the existence of other people different from yourself into consideration when making your choices in life, then go live in a hermit cabin in the woods and leave the rest of us to learn how to get along with each other.


Freeze peach? Your contempt for the constitution and basic human freedom couldn't be more clearer. Have you have ever heard the saying that 'your rights end where mine begin'? Ethics and morals? What does this mean? I think it is unethical and immoral to have speech laws because speech laws as even our founders knew were a tool of despotism. Our 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

A lot of people know about the Boston Tea Party and the group of patriots who dumped the British tea into the harbor but do you know that had all dressed up as Mohawk Indians before that they did it? Something tells me the Mohawks aren't so upset about that, I think its probably small potatoes in their long line of legitimate grievances but it is pretty funny seeing modern day "liberals" squirm over it, one must be reminded that these people idolize Karl Marx much more than they do Thomas Jefferson or John Adams and despise our constitution and the protections of our GOD GIVEN rights. No, in their mind the power of government and essentially the mob determines what your rights our. That is how the greatest crimes in history have been justified.

Your feelings don't trump my rights, you are not more important me and or anyone else, we are all the same. It doesn't matter if you think you were historically maligned since guess what, so has every peoples on Earth at one time or another and unless you personally have experienced this then your "triggering" is a learned response and not one based in reality. Be courteous of other peoples feelings sure but you and I both know that much more is being asked, you can't sanitize society of everything you don't like or offends you and the people that attempt to are the worst type of authoritarian.

You know a lot of Christians are offended by homosexuals just existing openly in society let alone the government actually recognizing their marriages? They are the majority, do we care about their feelings? No, because we as INDIVIDUALS have inalienable rights endowed to us by our creator and they do not get to dictate what we as individuals do with it so long as it does not infringe on the rights of someone else. There is no "right to not be offended", I am a nice person and will hear you out but you can't or at least shouldn't be able to force your views and beliefs system on me because if you can do it one way then it can be done the other way around. I actually live by a pretty simple moral code, the non-aggression principle and voluntary association. People like me don't hurt people, it's those who think that they can control the actions of others that have and always will be the worst monsters in history.


I am not American, and here in Canada we have limits on our free speech written into our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (barring the expression of hate speech and the incitement of violence). So pretty much everything you said to me here is irrelevant. I like the limited free speech my country has, so I plan to stay here.


sure

enjoy your country where you can be fined, sued, or imprisoned for words

proud of your limited speech :lol: a happy slave, good for you



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29 Oct 2015, 7:21 pm

Jacoby wrote:
wilburforce wrote:

I am not American, and here in Canada we have limits on our free speech written into our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (barring the expression of hate speech and the incitement of violence). So pretty much everything you said to me here is irrelevant. I like the limited free speech my country has, so I plan to stay here.


sure

enjoy your country where you can be fined, sued, or imprisoned for words

proud of your limited speech :lol: a happy slave, good for you


I do enjoy it greatly, and I'm very glad my grandparents emigrated here instead of to the States when they left the home country decades ago. They chose Canada specifically for the ways it was different from America (politeness, fewer guns, less crime, socialised medicine, etc.) I feel very lucky to live where I do and wouldn't want to be anywhere else, even after almost 10 years of Harper and his cronies.

p.s.--If I were ever to promote hate speech or incite violence publicly, I believe I would deserve to be charged with that. Good thing I don't ever do that and so don't have to worry about it.



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29 Oct 2015, 8:09 pm

Since (1) Olive Oil Mom has stated her desire to not return to this website, and (2) this thread has descended into a state of negativity and contentiousness that has lasted long after her departure, perhaps a thread lock is in order.

Just sayin'.