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100000fireflies
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23 Feb 2016, 11:27 pm

Raptor wrote:
I think it would be better to regulate prices of medical products and services over a certain dollar amount. Having done that, I'd regulate the cost of health insurance. This way employers and most individuals could easily afford coverage. Services provided to the poor would cost the taxpayer less and could be more generous.

There is no mother-effing reason for healthcare to cost what it does other than greed and that IS the problem.


I think this was part of the premise of the affordable care act though via a different route. The aca concept being to force lower/group rates from insurance companies and utilize group negotiation instead of every man for himself charge as much as you want. As well as that the costs are often defined by high risk, high cost patients. Whereas if a large percent on the plan are the younger, low-risk, it reduces the overall payout per individual ratio and thus allows for reduced plan costs.

I'm kind of surprised to hear you say that though. I was of the impression that you were strongly of the government keep your regulators out of my business camp.


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Last edited by 100000fireflies on 23 Feb 2016, 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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23 Feb 2016, 11:39 pm

Obamacare was a big pay off to the insurance industry

the only people it has helped are the kids that get to stay on their parent's insurance longer and those that gained healthcare from expanded medicaid

corporatism at it's finest



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23 Feb 2016, 11:40 pm

Raptor wrote:
There is no mother-effing reason for healthcare to cost what it does other than greed and that IS the problem.


Actually, the problem is that we don't treat medical insurance like insurance, i.e. something we rely on to cover catastrophic events, we use it to pay for everything medical, and that insulates the people spending the money from the people actually paying enough to prevent the market from working properly. Look at LASIK surgery, it gets cheaper and cheaper precisely because it's not covered by insurance and providers have to actually compete for people's business, which means better service and lower prices. Introduce the market back into healthcare, and you'll see more improvement than with any amount of government regulations.


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23 Feb 2016, 11:55 pm

100000fireflies wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I think it would be better to regulate prices of medical products and services over a certain dollar amount. Having done that, I'd regulate the cost of health insurance. This way employers and most individuals could easily afford coverage. Services provided to the poor would cost the taxpayer less and could be more generous.

There is no mother-effing reason for healthcare to cost what it does other than greed and that IS the problem.


I think this was part of the premise of the affordable care act. The concept being to force lower/group rates from insurance companies and utilize group negotiation instead of every man for himself charge as much as you want.
As well as that the costs are often defined by high risk, high cost patients. Whereas if a large percent on the plan are the younger, low-risk, it reduces the overall payout per individual ratio and thus allows for reduced plan costs.


But before I said regulate insurance costs I said we need to regulate the cost of healthcare itself. By that I mean a price cap on all medical products and services over a certain dollar amount. It's the over the top costs of actually heathcare services that is driving the madness. This seems to go over everyone's head.

Quote:
I'm kind of surprised to hear you say that though. I was of the impression that you were strongly of the government keep your regulators out of my business camp.

As a hard hearted evil conservaive I Normally am against government meddling, but the healthcare industry has collectively f****d itself with exorbitant pricing. Moreover, as a hard hearted evil conservative, I'd rather have some hardline price capping than forcing people into Obamacare or something worse.


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24 Feb 2016, 12:00 am

Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
There is no mother-effing reason for healthcare to cost what it does other than greed and that IS the problem.


Actually, the problem is that we don't treat medical insurance like insurance, i.e. something we rely on to cover catastrophic events, we use it to pay for everything medical, and that insulates the people spending the money from the people actually paying enough to prevent the market from working properly. Look at LASIK surgery, it gets cheaper and cheaper precisely because it's not covered by insurance and providers have to actually compete for people's business, which means better service and lower prices. Introduce the market back into healthcare, and you'll see more improvement than with any amount of government regulations.


You have a point there, but I wonder how something more dire like a major injury or illness would play out in terms of affordability if the individual had to pay out of pocket for it.


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100000fireflies
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24 Feb 2016, 12:10 am

Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
There is no mother-effing reason for healthcare to cost what it does other than greed and that IS the problem.


Actually, the problem is that we don't treat medical insurance like insurance, i.e. something we rely on to cover catastrophic events, we use it to pay for everything medical, and that insulates the people spending the money from the people actually paying enough to prevent the market from working properly. Look at LASIK surgery, it gets cheaper and cheaper precisely because it's not covered by insurance and providers have to actually compete for people's business, which means better service and lower prices. Introduce the market back into healthcare, and you'll see more improvement than with any amount of government regulations.



The price of lasik has also dropped simply because there is an increase in quantity of providers able to perform it, increased efficiency, as well as the demand of people getting it (thus lessening costs of required product purchases). Any new specialization or technique will initially cost significantly more. Were the cost drop purely because it's not covered by insurance, I'd think all plastic surgery would be far cheaper.

Doctors can also be excluded from plans for charging too much. How would that be different?

Meanwhile, if you make people pay for everything out of pocket, yes, some will stop the frivilous crap like calling an ambulance for the flu. But many others will stop all preventative and treatment care which means a lot of people with major, unpayable hospital bills.


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24 Feb 2016, 12:27 am

Raptor wrote:
100000fireflies wrote:

I think this was part of the premise of the affordable care act. The concept being to force lower/group rates from insurance companies and utilize group negotiation instead of every man for himself charge as much as you want.
As well as that the costs are often defined by high risk, high cost patients. Whereas if a large percent on the plan are the younger, low-risk, it reduces the overall payout per individual ratio and thus allows for reduced plan costs.


But before I said regulate insurance costs I said we need to regulate the cost of healthcare itself. By that I mean a price cap on all medical products and services over a certain dollar amount. It's the over the top costs of actually heathcare services that is driving the madness. This seems to go over everyone's head.


I saw that. I actually edited my reply apparently while you were replying and added "I think this was part of the premise of the affordable care act though via a different route"

I think a problem with regulating services is that you then may begin to limit people willing to devote the time and energy toward something like being a surgeon. Similar to teachers..they're paid poorly and many people sadly won't teach because of it. So, if you have a group of people capable of being a surgeon who could make far more elsewhere with less work...
There also are the schooling costs, which for med school is substantial. Add in any specialization and it's more. A few years of residency making next to nothing, and there's a load of debt.

I don't fully disagree with the concept. I just think it may be far more complicated to implement (and would need to include things like paid tuition) versus the aca's attempted route.


Quote:
As a hard hearted evil conservaive I Normally am against government meddling, but the healthcare industry has collectively f****d itself with exorbitant pricing. Moreover, as a hard hearted evil conservative, I'd rather have some hardline price capping than forcing people into Obamacare or something worse.


I support the aca as i think something needs to be done and it makes sense for the greater good as well as individual costs (see above), but if they were able to regulate the costs via a different route, i guess i'd be in agreement with a hard hearted conservative.


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24 Feb 2016, 12:54 am

100000fireflies wrote:
Raptor wrote:
100000fireflies wrote:

I think this was part of the premise of the affordable care act. The concept being to force lower/group rates from insurance companies and utilize group negotiation instead of every man for himself charge as much as you want.
As well as that the costs are often defined by high risk, high cost patients. Whereas if a large percent on the plan are the younger, low-risk, it reduces the overall payout per individual ratio and thus allows for reduced plan costs.


But before I said regulate insurance costs I said we need to regulate the cost of healthcare itself. By that I mean a price cap on all medical products and services over a certain dollar amount. It's the over the top costs of actually heathcare services that is driving the madness. This seems to go over everyone's head.


I saw that. I actually edited my reply apparently while you were replying and added "I think this was part of the premise of the affordable care act though via a different route"

I think a problem with regulating services is that you then may begin to limit people willing to devote the time and energy toward something like being a surgeon. Similar to teachers..they're paid poorly and many people sadly won't teach because of it. So, if you have a group of people capable of being a surgeon who could make far more elsewhere with less work...
There also are the schooling costs, which for med school is substantial. Add in any specialization and it's more. A few years of residency making next to nothing, and there's a load of debt.

I don't fully disagree with the concept. I just think it may be far more complicated to implement (and would need to include things like paid tuition) versus the aca's attempted route.

What drove ACA and whatever follows that is the high cost of services. If we lose some talent because they can't be as rich as they thnk they're entitled to be then f**k them, well get by without them. There's no quick fix for this and about all ACA is doing is trying to fix an arterial bleed with a bandaid.


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24 Feb 2016, 1:40 am

GGPViper wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
That's just it - it's not helping people. I would like to hear from just ONE person who has been actually helped by Obamacare - just ONE.

While I don't have their contact details, why don't you ask one of these 50,374 individuals?

Exhibit 5. Total Annual and Cumulative Deaths Averted (Compared to 2010 Baseline)

Image
Source: http://www.ahrq.gov/professionals/quali ... e2013.html

... Silly me... While that's the number of 50,000 lives saved by Obamacare frequently cited in the media (notwithstanding the expected lives saved from increased insurance coverage estimated based on the effects of Romneycare in Massachusetts), it's clearly not valid... As it is now outdated... let's try again with the most recent data:

Image

Source: http://www.ahrq.gov/professionals/quali ... e2014.html

So... while I still don't have their contact details, why don't you ask one of these 86,669 individuals?

Courtesy of the following....

PPACA - aka "Obamacare" aka "Romneycare 2.0" wrote:
TITLE III—IMPROVING THE QUALITY AND EFFICIENCY OF HEALTH CARE
Subtitle A—Transforming the Health Care Delivery System
PART I—LINKING PAYMENT TO QUALITY OUTCOMES UNDER THE MEDICARE PROGRAM
Sec. 3001. Hospital Value-Based purchasing program.
Sec. 3002. Improvements to the physician quality reporting system.
Sec. 3003. Improvements to the physician feedback program.
Sec. 3004. Quality reporting for long-term care hospitals, inpatient rehabilitation
hospitals, and hospice programs.
Sec. 3005. Quality reporting for PPS-exempt cancer hospitals.
Sec. 3006. Plans for a Value-Based purchasing program for skilled nursing facilities
and home health agencies.
Sec. 3007. Value-based payment modifier under the physician fee schedule.
Sec. 3008. Payment adjustment for conditions acquired in hospitals.

Source: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111p ... ubl148.pdf


I have just had time to look over that first website where you're posting your info from and it says this in the second paragraph :

"Although the precise causes of the decline in patient harm are not fully understood "

That one sentence explains everything. Another thing is its saying it may be due to Medicare and Medicaid costs. Where does it say the words OBAMACARE? Please enlighten me, otherwise I don't see a reason to waste time reading the other websites you have posted.

Medicare and Medicaid are NOT Obamacare.


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24 Feb 2016, 1:48 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
We have both the "long" and "short" form of Obama's birth certificate. He was born in the State of Hawaii, in a Honolulu hospital.


I don't care if I'm called a "BIRTHER", I've heard worse - I think it's all a lie and he was born in Kenya. I think he lied about that just like everything else he's lied about.


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24 Feb 2016, 1:51 am

Obama could of been born on the moon, he still has been a disaster as president. The only positive is that John McCain or Mitt Romney aren't president.



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24 Feb 2016, 1:55 am

Misslizard wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Darn, I have homework to do. :cry:


PS: Still waiting on those people who have Obamacare to give me some numbers; otherwise, I take it that they know its a crappy plan and they don't want the truth getting out. :mrgreen:

Why don't you ask your patients?


Because that is the job of Admitting. I treat the physical ailments. That's why I'm asking the people who are supporters of Obamacare and if they don't have Obamacare themselves then they really don't have much say on the matter, in my opinion. I have had personal experience with Obamacare and I think it is an absolute farce just like who it's named after.

Tell that to people with pre existing conditions.Before they were denied medical care.Who cares who it's named for,as long as it helps people.


That's just it - it's not helping people. I would like to hear from just ONE person who has been actually helped by Obamacare - just ONE.

You already said you are not in admitting,so how would you know.?Do you work in billing?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014 ... .html?_r=0


Because I have not heard from one person that has Obamacare that it has helped them. Most of our patients that offer up their health insurance information to me have BCBS mainly or none at all.

Auntblabby, you say that you were able to go to the doctor for the first time in your life, but you are not coming out and saying what you are having to pay (deductible-wise). I had to try to find insurance other than Obamacare when I lost my job because my deductible for Obamacare just for me was $6,000 and for families it was $10,000 or higher. It's no secret what the plans are because there are only about 3 you can pick from depending on whether you are single or have a family. All the plans are right on the internet. What is YOUR deductible?

And most people (including my friend Julia) that I have talked to are going to pay the fine because it is the cheapest way out. Thing is, the fine is going to be raised so that isn't going to be a way to go either. The IRS will be keeping track who has Obamacare and if they don't then it will be taken directly out of their tax refunds.

Still not sure how you would know who it's benefited unless you were in billing.Do you poll the patients?Who is Julia and why would I care??


Quit going around in circles. I asked for specific information on Obamacare deductibles and so far no one has given me any. That is telling me the OBAMACARE SUCKS! and you people just don't want to come out and say how much it bites the big one because it would be going against your great King. :roll:

You are the one endlessly chasing your tail in circles.You obviously never read imbedded links.Where is your proof it doesn't work??Even if there are flaws in the plan it's better than having no insurance at all.It's helped a relative of mine who is pregnant,otherwise she wouldn't have the funds for prenatal care.But I doubt you believe that.
I find it strange that a supposed health care professional would be against people having affordable insurance.


I would be if the Healthcare insurance was AFFORDABLE. I still am waiting to hear from someone who has Obamacare to tell me how fabulous it is. Surely there is one person on this big vast website who has it and can comment. Right? If it is so great, finding just one person who has Obamacare should be a piece of cake. What about you? Do you have it?


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nurseangela
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24 Feb 2016, 2:01 am

100000fireflies wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Tell that to people with pre existing conditions.Before they were denied medical care.Who cares who it's named for,as long as it helps people.


That's just it - it's not helping people. I would like to hear from just ONE person who has been actually helped by Obamacare - just ONE.

You already said you are not in admitting,so how would you know.?Do you work in billing?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014 ... .html?_r=0


Because I have not heard from one person that has Obamacare that it has helped them. Most of our patients that offer up their health insurance information to me have BCBS mainly or none at all.

Auntblabby, you say that you were able to go to the doctor for the first time in your life, but you are not coming out and saying what you are having to pay (deductible-wise). I had to try to find insurance other than Obamacare when I lost my job because my deductible for Obamacare just for me was $6,000 and for families it was $10,000 or higher. It's no secret what the plans are because there are only about 3 you can pick from depending on whether you are single or have a family. All the plans are right on the internet. What is YOUR deductible?

And most people (including my friend Julia) that I have talked to are going to pay the fine because it is the cheapest way out. Thing is, the fine is going to be raised so that isn't going to be a way to go either. The IRS will be keeping track who has Obamacare and if they don't then it will be taken directly out of their tax refunds.


yesterday - 2 hours before you wrote this
auntblabby wrote:
nurse, this is the plan-
https://www1.ghc.org/static/individual- ... bronze.pdf
costs me $35 per month. that may not sound like much to you but I can barely afford it, I don't have cable or high-speed internet.


What page is that post on because I want to see it.


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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
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100000fireflies
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24 Feb 2016, 2:22 am

nurseangela wrote:
I would be if the Healthcare insurance was AFFORDABLE. I still am waiting to hear from someone who has Obamacare to tell me how fabulous it is. Surely there is one person on this big vast website who has it and can comment. Right? If it is so great, finding just one person who has Obamacare should be a piece of cake. What about you? Do you have it?



Kraichgauer already did.
Maybe you're logging off before the replies.


Kraichgauer wrote:
nurseangela wrote:

Do you have Obamacare, Kraichgauer?


Matter of fact, I do. And contrary to what you righties say, I have few complaints, as having no coverage would be considerably worse.


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nurseangela
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24 Feb 2016, 2:36 am

100000fireflies wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
I would be if the Healthcare insurance was AFFORDABLE. I still am waiting to hear from someone who has Obamacare to tell me how fabulous it is. Surely there is one person on this big vast website who has it and can comment. Right? If it is so great, finding just one person who has Obamacare should be a piece of cake. What about you? Do you have it?



Kraichgauer already did.
Maybe you're logging off before the replies.


Kraichgauer wrote:
nurseangela wrote:

Do you have Obamacare, Kraichgauer?


Matter of fact, I do. And contrary to what you righties say, I have few complaints, as having no coverage would be considerably worse.


OK. So why is no one answering my questions about it - anyone can say they have it. I want to know what the deductible is. What is the deductible? And they should be able to tell me where I can find it online.


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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


nurseangela
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24 Feb 2016, 2:38 am

nurseangela wrote:
100000fireflies wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Tell that to people with pre existing conditions.Before they were denied medical care.Who cares who it's named for,as long as it helps people.


That's just it - it's not helping people. I would like to hear from just ONE person who has been actually helped by Obamacare - just ONE.

You already said you are not in admitting,so how would you know.?Do you work in billing?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014 ... .html?_r=0


Because I have not heard from one person that has Obamacare that it has helped them. Most of our patients that offer up their health insurance information to me have BCBS mainly or none at all.

Auntblabby, you say that you were able to go to the doctor for the first time in your life, but you are not coming out and saying what you are having to pay (deductible-wise). I had to try to find insurance other than Obamacare when I lost my job because my deductible for Obamacare just for me was $6,000 and for families it was $10,000 or higher. It's no secret what the plans are because there are only about 3 you can pick from depending on whether you are single or have a family. All the plans are right on the internet. What is YOUR deductible?

And most people (including my friend Julia) that I have talked to are going to pay the fine because it is the cheapest way out. Thing is, the fine is going to be raised so that isn't going to be a way to go either. The IRS will be keeping track who has Obamacare and if they don't then it will be taken directly out of their tax refunds.


yesterday - 2 hours before you wrote this
auntblabby wrote:
nurse, this is the plan-
https://www1.ghc.org/static/individual- ... bronze.pdf
costs me $35 per month. that may not sound like much to you but I can barely afford it, I don't have cable or high-speed internet.


What page is that post on because I want to see it.


And on what page is auntblabbys post? I couldn't find it and I'd like to see it.


_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.