Disturbing Passages in Holy Books

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09 Dec 2023, 9:41 pm

It’s not much different than the situation for women in various Abrahamic faiths, including my previous one.

There’s a lot of toxicity in ancient texts. They are interesting from a historical and literary standpoint but can be extremely problematic as a basis for faith.

It can be hard for believers to know where to draw the line with a work supposedly inspired by God. Some follow just the nice bits. I can respect that, but it’s not for me.

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cyberdad
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09 Dec 2023, 9:52 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

It can be hard for believers to know where to draw the line with a work supposedly inspired by God. Some follow just the nice bits. I can respect that, but it’s not for me.

Human beings are very practical when it comes to where they choose to draw lines and invoke god.

TwilightPrincess
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09 Dec 2023, 9:54 pm

cyberdad wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

It can be hard for believers to know where to draw the line with a work supposedly inspired by God. Some follow just the nice bits. I can respect that, but it’s not for me.

Human beings are very practical when it comes to where they choose to draw lines and invoke god.

No, not always.

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09 Dec 2023, 9:59 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Women in the New Testament:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

Ephesians 5:22,23 “Wives, be submissive to your own husbands as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head and Savior of the church, which is His body. But as the church submits to Christ, so also let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.”

I think I’m going to be sick. :eew:

Quite a few denominations allow women to be pastors.

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TwilightPrincess
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09 Dec 2023, 10:06 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:

Quite a few denominations allow women to be pastors.

Quite a few don’t too - like Catholics and various strict/fundamentalist Protestant groups.

If I were a Christian, I might be against it. I’ll have to ponder that for awhile. :lol:

Of course, this thread is more about sharing disturbing passages in holy books than on the extent they should or shouldn’t be followed. People are free to take or leave whatever they want from religious works when it comes to matters of faith (within reason) although, given the nature of these writings, sometimes they cause harm to a greater or lesser extent.

I think the New Testament is the least offensive Abrahamic collection of writings. Overall, the Old Testament and Quran are similarly problematic in my opinion.

Edit: off-topic but interesting: “The Old Testament was found to be more than twice as violent as the Quran”

Quote:

Killing and destruction are referenced slightly more often in the New Testament (2.8%) than in the Quran (2.1%), but the Old Testament clearly leads—more than twice that of the Quran—in mentions of destruction and killing (5.3%)."

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 63381.html

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10 Dec 2023, 10:13 am

!	Cornflake wrote:
	Some off topic posts have been removed. It is not the intention of this thread to introduce a debate about race in America - that, from many viewpoints, is best addressed in a new thread.

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TwilightPrincess
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10 Dec 2023, 10:23 am

Useful information on how to deal with those who leave the faith and/or engage in apostasy:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Quran 4:89, 90:

89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper. 90 Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

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10 Dec 2023, 1:39 pm

Misslizard wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Apparently. Maybe they keep it in a special place along with her baby teeth and first shoes.

In the the box with the foreskin collection.

Speaking of foreskin collections

1 Samuel 18 wrote:

And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies. But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines.

And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king's son in law: and the days were not expired.

Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.

And Saul saw and knew that the Lord was with David, and that Michal Saul's daughter loved him.

What a way to win a girl's heart.

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11 Dec 2023, 10:37 am

Sill on the topic of foreskin collections

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

Genesis 34 wrote:

nd Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land.

2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.

3 And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel.

4 And Shechem spake unto his father Hamor, saying, Get me this damsel to wife.

5 And Jacob heard that he had defiled Dinah his daughter: now his sons were with his cattle in the field: and Jacob held his peace until they were come.

6 And Hamor the father of Shechem went out unto Jacob to commune with him.

7 And the sons of Jacob came out of the field when they heard it: and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter: which thing ought not to be done.

8 And Hamor communed with them, saying, The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter: I pray you give her him to wife.

9 And make ye marriages with us, and give your daughters unto us, and take our daughters unto you.

10 And ye shall dwell with us: and the land shall be before you; dwell and trade ye therein, and get you possessions therein.

11 And Shechem said unto her father and unto her brethren, Let me find grace in your eyes, and what ye shall say unto me I will give.

12 Ask me never so much dowry and gift, and I will give according as ye shall say unto me: but give me the damsel to wife.

13 And the sons of Jacob answered Shechem and Hamor his father deceitfully, and said, because he had defiled Dinah their sister:

14 And they said unto them, We cannot do this thing, to give our sister to one that is uncircumcised; for that were a reproach unto us:

15 But in this will we consent unto you: If ye will be as we be, that every male of you be circumcised;

16 Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become one people.

17 But if ye will not hearken unto us, to be circumcised; then will we take our daughter, and we will be gone.

18 And their words pleased Hamor, and Shechem Hamor's son.

19 And the young man deferred not to do the thing, because he had delight in Jacob's daughter: and he was more honourable than all the house of his father.

20 And Hamor and Shechem his son came unto the gate of their city, and communed with the men of their city, saying,

21 These men are peaceable with us; therefore let them dwell in the land, and trade therein; for the land, behold, it is large enough for them; let us take their daughters to us for wives, and let us give them our daughters.

22 Only herein will the men consent unto us for to dwell with us, to be one people, if every male among us be circumcised, as they are circumcised.

23 Shall not their cattle and their substance and every beast of their's be our's? only let us consent unto them, and they will dwell with us.

24 And unto Hamor and unto Shechem his son hearkened all that went out of the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all that went out of the gate of his city.

25 And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the city boldly, and slew all the males.

26 And they slew Hamor and Shechem his son with the edge of the sword, and took Dinah out of Shechem's house, and went out.

27 The sons of Jacob came upon the slain, and spoiled the city, because they had defiled their sister.

28 They took their sheep, and their oxen, and their asses, and that which was in the city, and that which was in the field,

29 And all their wealth, and all their little ones, and their wives took they captive, and spoiled even all that was in the house.

30 And Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites: and I being few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house.

31 And they said, Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?

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TwilightPrincess
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11 Dec 2023, 10:46 am

I grew up with that story but the focus was on Dinah. She was apparently to blame for being raped because she hung out with canaanites (i.e. nonbelievers). :roll:

In a book I grew up with for 5-7 year olds:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bib ... ter-dinah/

ANYWAY, the Old Testament does seem to spend an inordinate amount of time on foreskins.

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11 Dec 2023, 12:51 pm

^At that point, though, according to the narrative, there would have been very few people with whom Dinah could socialize, and to whom Dinah could get married, as the number of people who "obeyed God's laws" was very limited. She was Jacob's only daughter. Even her cousins, Esau's children, might have been off limits.

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12 Dec 2023, 12:26 pm

^Dinah's brothers and nephews, though, had no problem procuring wives, and slept around a bit.

Anyway, Matthew 7 is gold for trolling politicians and religious leaders on facebook.

Matthew 7 wrote:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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18 Dec 2023, 1:02 pm

2 Kings 2 wrote:

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, "Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head."

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

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18 Dec 2023, 5:07 pm

While disturbing passages do exist in holy books we all agree not everyone who follows the bible or Quran actually internalises or acts upon those passages?

Many christians can "read between the lines" and are capable of focusing on certain passages for their own faith/beliefs without getting caught up on the bad stuff.

The bible and Quran provide spiritual solace and help people to cope with the stresses of life. They also help with personal growth,

From that perspective the existence of dangerously disturbing passages can (to some extent) be overlooked. it's only certain segments of society, segments, cults etc....who take the literal meaning to be "gospel" and use the words to inflict pain/cruelty on others.

Also establishing fundamentalist nation states based on the bible or Quran is not healthy.

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18 Dec 2023, 5:42 pm

cyberdad wrote:

While disturbing passages do exist in holy books we all agree not everyone who follows the bible or Quran actually internalises or acts upon those passages?

I never claimed that everyone did. Many people obviously do though - some passages more than others. It’s a big problem - now and historically. It’s been a problem for some members of WP, including myself, to a greater or lesser extent. On a larger scale, some are currently using their holy books to justify extreme acts of cruelty.

Once again, the topic of this thread is disturbing passages in holy books. You can contribute some or avoid posting. It’s up to you.

This isn’t the place for a generalized debate. You could start a thread for that though.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 18 Dec 2023, 7:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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18 Dec 2023, 6:02 pm

What to do with a female captive you fancy in Deuteronomy 21:10-14:

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 18 Dec 2023, 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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