Are you a Taoists ???

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I hope everything's okay Pixel8.

I guess I can tell you this much, I'm trying to quit smoking, tobacco that is, it's so bad for me and I lean on it too much. One day I will die and that's ok but I don't want it to be something horrible like this that I could have prevented. My son needs me now and I have to stay alive for him. Each time I breathe I am breathing fresh air, in out yin yang blah blah....I've had 5 roll ups today...I want to be the guy on cold mountain like in the poem but I'm struggling with just the basic attatchments, there you go, Zen and the art of giving up smoking. (cough)

I would like to learn Taoist meditation like this:

http://www.naturalhealthweb.com/article ... dini1.html

Pixel8: Best of luck with quitting smoking!! It is so good that your doing it.

I liked the link on Oneness.

“I have put duality away, I have seen that the two worlds are one: one I seek, one I know, one I see, one I call. He is the first, he is the last. He is the outward, he is the inward.”

- Rumi

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When water is still, it is like a mirror, reflecting the beard and the eyebrows. It gives the accuracy of the water-level, and the philosopher makes it his model. And if water thus derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind? The mind of the Sage being in repose becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

The fluidity of water is not the result of any effort on the part of the water, but is its natural property. And the virtue of the perfect man is such that even without cultivation there is nothing which can withdraw from his sway. Heaven is naturally high, the earth is naturally solid, the sun and moon are naturally bright. Do they cultivate these attributes?

- Chuang-tzu


Chuang-tzu saw an old man fall into a cataract and come out safely downstream. The old man when asked how he did this said:


“No,… I have no way [of doing this]. There was my original condition to begin with; then habit growing into nature; and lastly acquiescence in destiny. Plunging in with the whirl, I come out with the swirl. I accommodate myself to the water, not the water to me. And so I am able to deal with it after this fashion…. I was born upon dry land… and accommodated myself to dry land. That was my original condition. Growing up on the water, I accommodated myself to the water. That was what I meant by nature. And doing as I did without being conscious of any effort so to do, that was what I meant by destiny.”

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“Water is the blood of the Earth, and flows through its muscles and veins. Therefore it is said that water is something that has complete faculties. It is accumulated in Heaven and Earth, and stored up in the various things (of the world)…. Hence the solution for the Sage who would transform the world lies in water….Hence the Sage, when he rules the world, does not teach men one by one, or house by house, but takes water as his key.”

- Kuan-tzu (very condensed by me)
From Watt’s book, Tao: The Watercourse Way

Averick: I've been out of town, but I read these posts at least once every three days, so I am with you in spirit, even when I don't post.

From the cartoon strip Mutts:

How can birds fly?
They take themselves lightly.

I have read parts of the Tao Te Ching. I found many similarities to the Quran. Islamic belief is that all religions in the world were originally revealed by prophets of Allah, however, all these religions and holy books were edited and corrupted as the years went by. The concept of the Tao, is a lot like the concept we have of Allah. However, revering Fu Dog and such...ancestor worship, etc...all of these factors completely go against Islam.

The Tao Te Ching is very interesting. I hope to get back to reading it someday, must finish the Quran first, however. I must note, studying other religions and comparing their similarities to Islam is one of my hobbies.

All the mystical traditions share the belief that
(to put it in theistic terms) God cannot be known, She/he/it can only be loved. If (to paraphrase Neils Bohr) we are to understand what lies beyond the event horizon, we must totally change our definition of "to understand". Though they don't use the word as often as Christian mystics do. Taoists "love" the Tao. Eastern (east of the Urals, east of the Indus) mystics are free of the limitations (in my opinion) of patriarchal monotheism. "Tao" frees my mind and spirit more than "God" or even "higher power" because "higher" and "power" are limiting cultural concepts that get me into spiritual (and social) trouble. Tao may be more freeing for me than for Chinese Taoists because "Tao" , for me, is not laden with Chinese cultural luggage. Peace to all.

Rivers run to the sea because the sea is lower.

That sounds like an awesome hobby. I've read some of the Koran and the poetry is absolutely beautiful. I love Islamic history as well.

I have actually never read the Koran.
I will change that one day.

The Tao te Ching is 81 pages, the Qoran is 596 (in English "translation"). Actually a "translation" of the Qoran is not a translation at all, but merely an interpretation. So to read the Qoran one must be literate in Arabic. I am not. I am sure that the Qoran is the equal of other scriptures. I have read an English interpretation of the Quran. Parts are magnificent, parts are incomprehensible, parts are horrible--just like the Bible.

In the 81 pages of the Tao te Ching is almost everything a free spirited human being needs to know to live with himself, other people, and nature. I find it an inexhaustible source of wisdom, inspiration, and advice. I feel that if I read enough different translations by people who understand Chinese and Taoism, I will gain at least some of its wisdom without learning Chinese or exposing myself to the discipline of a Taoist monastery.

Please accept this as my random musing, not an agruement about the relative merits of different scriptures. In fact, I don't even think of the Tao te Ching as "scripture." I take it just as legend takes it to be. A wise old man goes into retirement. Someone begs him to leave us something. The Tao te Ching is what he left.
Peace to all.

Last edited by Bobby1933 on 29 Mar 2008, 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Me neither, I know Islam brought beautiful art to Europe especially in Spain
Muslims are getting such alot of bad press lately,
I'd like to know more about what they believe and how it relates to the Tao.

That would be interesting Pixel8. I'm sort of curious now..

Yes, it's true that the Quran is hard to interpret. There are many things that I too don't understand. You see, Quranic Arabic is very archaic, and many words have dozens of meanings. For example, the word "dahaha" is used to describe the world is "egg-shaped", but for many centuries, it was interpreted with different meanings. Also, the sura which allows wife-beating (in cases such as breach of trust) was misinterpreted. Now, most Islamic scholars agree that the word which they previously translated as "to beat" may actually mean "to banish", ie, the husband must not share his bed with his unfaithful wife. Similarly, if a woman is unsatisfied with the relationship, she can declare the marriage null and void, whereas the husband must recite Talaq to end the marriage, and although Talaq is permitted, apparently, it angers Allah. Hence, I do believe there's equality in Islam in different ways. Illiteracy and ignorance within Muslims however, creates a lot of negative publicity.

So, you see, even if you do learn Quranic Arabic, it's very very hard to interpret everything. However, I'm completely in support of creating an interpretation in easy English. The three most common interpretations use English which is not easy to understand by the common man.

I too don't speak Arabic, and I don't plan to learn it anytime soon. You'll be amazed however, at how similar the concept of Allah is to the Tao. I am convinced that Lao Tzu was a prophet.

Oh, btw, I suggest watching these videos at http://ummahfilms.blogspot.com . Ali Baba is quite humorous, a lot of non-Muslims watch his videos too. He basically reminds Muslims on how to correctly follow Islam, in a humorous fashion. How strange it is, the best Muslims happen to be converts.

Oh, btw, completely unrelated, does Tai Chi have any Taoist elements incorporated?

I really love the way you summarized that. Thereis a song by George Canyon told from the perspective of a soul who never makes it into life, but it is loved even though he/she? has never been seen and has no name, the unborn soul knows nothing of the human world, has no words or language but exists only in the emotion of love. I see this as a nice metaphor or meditation on removing all the worldliness, ideas, histories, obstructions or "baggage" too as you say, to religion and returning to a state of knowing absolutely nothing. St. Augustine does the same thing, he returns to enfancy and loses all memory in order to find God's love in the dark abyss of nothingness and timelessness. Like returning to something very simple yet profound, like the Tao.

"The Tao is nameless wholeness"

- Daodejin 32

One who possesses abundant power
May be compared to a newborn baby.

- Daodejing 55

How can I know that what I call Heaven is not really man,
and what I call man is not really Heaven?

-Zhuangzi 6

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=6MaOPc8mKHI

I liked the introduction to the Quran and thanks for the great link!! I have always seen it spelled Koran.

I haven’t read the Quran, sadly, and know little about it. I also like comparing things or finding universal archetypes though. Myths and fairy tales too.

Re: The Tai Chi, I’m no expert by any means on this but Qi is energy flow, the Tao of Qi is the “Way of Energy” and the pathways it takes through the universe. There are two kinds of Qigong (external: like martial arts) and internal (Tai Chi, which uses the Qi within the body, like the meridians or chakras) and it uses the “Tao of Energy”. Qi operates like the water of Tao, it’s something abstract that “flows”, and is part of Heaven and Earth, and the continual balance and interflow between.

The Tao of Qi, fundamental to Tai Chi, is called the "Tao of Transformation" the flow and ebb or currents of natural life, such as the continual flow of energy in earth's cycles, weather systems, oceans and rivers, creatures etc... everything is always changing, knowing the Tao of Qi means being able to coast through these changes a bit more easily.

Where the Tao we read here seems to say more, 'be' or exist, those who master the Tao of Qi feel it is (from my Qi picture book: "a compass - an instrument that will unerringly point to the direction in which the Qi is flowing". It is a very useful tool for the body and mind, a science and art form.

For many Tai Chi is like a moving meditation as well, finding the stillness that connects with the Tao. It's meant to create a mindfulness of every movement (like a walking meditation).

There is a lot on the bodily Tao and the Tao of energy actually. I won’t bore you and go on and on about it but if you have any questions bring them up and I'll see if I know or have information on it in my Qi book.


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More on Earth and Water

I wish I could join the Quran discussion but I know nothing about it. Neverthless, this is an extract I found in an anthology once, but I think its old and its probably not the best translation. It also cited it as from the “Koran.”

In the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alteration of night and day; in the ships that sail the ocean with cargoes beneficial to man; in the water which God sends down from the sky and with which He revives the earth after its death, dispersing over it all manner of beasts, in the disposal of the winds, and in the clouds that are driven between sky and earth: surely in these there are signs for rational men.

- Quran

Sun and moon rely on the Tao of Heaven;
Thus can their shining be long lasting.
The four seasons change and transform;
Thus can their production of beings long endure.
The holy sage remains long lasting in his way of life;
Then all things under Heaven are transformed to completion.
Contemplate the Tao of Long Lasting,
To see the nature of Heaven and Earth and of all beings.

- Confucius

The sound of the water
Says what I think

- Wu Wei