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slowmutant
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27 Dec 2008, 11:42 am

Pre-pubescents working as slave labourers in Nike plants, that is a far cry from kids doing paper-routes or the occaisional odd job for spending-money. You know the difference, yes?



slowmutant
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27 Dec 2008, 11:45 am

ouinon wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
ouinon wrote:
monty wrote:
Interesting.
You are right, that is very interesting, because by making it illegal for children under 12 to work in factories the govt actually took away a right from children, a right that they had had from time immemorial, which was to work. And by doing so made having children a far less worthwhile/more expensive investment, as you pointed out.
Child-labour is not a good thing. It is even more barbaric than denying women their basic human rights. Victimizing children is always the lowest.

That is what is so interesting about "morals", that when circumstances require a certain response from humans morals/rules arise which seem like absolutes.

In fact there is nothing fundamentally wrong with children working. The children working in countries where it is still legal are many/most of them happy to do so, glad to be active contributors to the economy and wellbeing of their family and community. Children like to do what the adults around them do, are in fact programmed to copy what the adults in their community do.

If you have seen a boy running errands for his father's business, a child serving in their parents shop, a boy out on the hillside guarding the goats, a girl feeding her family's hens, or caring for her younger brothers and sisters, then you know that there is nothing intrinsically wrong about "child-labour". The number of children who are exploited/abused/overworked is no more than the number of adults.

But it becomes "wrong" in a society which needs/apparently needs to reduce its fertility rate, because so long as children have the right to work, if they are capable of it, like most other humans, they are too valuable a resource, and people will continue to have lots of them.

When the population was steady child-labour was completely normal, but in a society creating food and wealth and sanitation at such a rate that the population soars, "child-labour" becomes something taboo/scandalous, in the same way as a lone/"loose" woman was a taboo when the population was small(er) and the tribe/society was aiming at increasing its numbers, ( being fruitful and multiplying ).

.


You seem to be fanatically devoted to your cause. Don't do that. Don't lose perspective.



ouinon
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27 Dec 2008, 11:53 am

slowmutant wrote:
Pre-pubescents working as slave labourers in Nike plants, that is a far cry from kids doing paper-routes or the occasional odd job for spending-money. You know the difference, yes?

I wasn't talking about newspaper boys; I was talking about children in Africa and India and northern Asia and parts of South America who work long hours at agricultural and commercial jobs with their family or in the community.

You are talking about children in places where industrialisation has already begun to spread, and where the population has also grown exponentially in the last 50 years... and where child labour is already, and not coincidentally, on the way out.

The moral reaction to children in factories/sweatshops is already driving governments in such places to implement legislation which outlaws child-labour in exactly the same way as it did in the West 150 years ago as factories spread and the population grew, and this will cause a drop in the birth rate.
.



Last edited by ouinon on 27 Dec 2008, 11:57 am, edited 3 times in total.

ouinon
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27 Dec 2008, 11:54 am

slowmutant wrote:
You seem to be fanatically devoted to your cause.

Which cause is that?
.



ouinon
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27 Dec 2008, 12:01 pm

ouinon wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
You seem to be fanatically devoted to your cause.
Which cause is that?

In fact I am interested to discover that whereas I have over the last 15 years or so been fully in favour of children's right to work, vote, etc, I now find myself questioning this, because it would appear that there is a good reason why children do not have the right to work, in our society, at this time.

Would I have felt the same way about women not having the right to live alone/without a man, in a previous time in society which was aiming at increasing its population?

Difficult to imagine living in a time when human numbers were so small, and survival past childhood so uncertain, that such a measure may have seemed imperative.
.



Last edited by ouinon on 27 Dec 2008, 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

slowmutant
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27 Dec 2008, 12:06 pm

ouinon wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
You seem to be fanatically devoted to your cause.

Which cause is that?
.


Feminism!

You know, what you've been blathering on and on about. Your sene of social justice does not exist outside the bounds feminism. Never mind the poor oppressed women, what about the abuse and exploitation of children?

Feminism seems almost psychotic in its lack of concern for the world in general.

I spit on it.



ouinon
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27 Dec 2008, 12:15 pm

slowmutant wrote:
ouinon wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
You seem to be fanatically devoted to your cause.
Which cause is that?
Feminism! ... Your sense of social justice does not exist outside the bounds of feminism.

I don't think you can have read or understood much of what I, or some others, have written in this thread if you think that. NB. Feminism simply means equal rights for men and women.

Quote:
Never mind the poor oppressed women, what about the abuse and exploitation of children?

Exactly, think of all the children who no longer have the right to work productively/for money, as they have done for millenia, ( like almost every other human ), because our species invented a method so powerful for production etc ( industry and technology etc ), that we now suffer from overpopulation and need to discourage people from having children by making it a prohibitively expensive and lengthy undertaking.

Instead children now must spend 6-8 hours a day on pointless tasks without pay, ( at school ), to ensure that they can not contribute anything to their family until they are at least 16/18 years old.

.



Last edited by ouinon on 27 Dec 2008, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

slowmutant
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27 Dec 2008, 12:57 pm

Quote:
Exactly, think of all the children who no longer have the right to work productively/for money


The right? 8O

Children deserve to be children. They have this right. Children should not have to go to work and earn money as adullts do. Depriving a child of his youth an inncocense is simply unspeakable.

Why?

Go ask someone whose mind is not so diseased as yours and they will tell you.


I'm completely disgusted now- goodbye :evil:



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27 Dec 2008, 2:46 pm

ouinon wrote:
Sand wrote:
I just wonder why it is assumed that women are not particularly eager about sex.

It is not an assumption. It is such an established fact, ( as I already explained very clearly above ), that huge pharmaceutical companies are planning on making a lot of money out of it.

The sexist attitude, ( which is that men are the norm, against which women are measured ), is that women should/must want sex as often and as much as men, and if they don't they are dysfunctional, so let's give them a pill for it, rather than accepting that 33%-46% of women are very often ... etc, etc, etc, not that interested in sex.



How is it sexist???



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27 Dec 2008, 7:54 pm

Haliphron wrote:
ouinon wrote:
Sand wrote:
I just wonder why it is assumed that women are not particularly eager about sex.

It is not an assumption. It is such an established fact, ( as I already explained very clearly above ), that huge pharmaceutical companies are planning on making a lot of money out of it.

The sexist attitude, ( which is that men are the norm, against which women are measured ), is that women should/must want sex as often and as much as men, and if they don't they are dysfunctional, so let's give them a pill for it, rather than accepting that 33%-46% of women are very often ... etc, etc, etc, not that interested in sex.



How is it sexist???


It assumes that the 'normal' state for men is better than the 'normal' state for women. Like it would be sexist to give men a pill specifically to make them have female-level sex drives.



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27 Dec 2008, 8:29 pm

ouinon wrote:
So the "problem" in countries whose population growth rate is still high is that they allow children to work, whether in factories, or seasonally on the land, or in their shops/small businesses etc. So long as children have the right to work people will keep having them.

It's not just work as children, equally important is the fact that in many societies children take care of their parents when the parents are too elderly to earn their own subsistence. Off-spring function as a 'retirement plant', in that one invests in them when one is strong and healthy and can expect a return via assistance from their off-spring when they are elderly.



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28 Dec 2008, 8:05 pm

LKL wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
ouinon wrote:
Sand wrote:
I just wonder why it is assumed that women are not particularly eager about sex.

It is not an assumption. It is such an established fact, ( as I already explained very clearly above ), that huge pharmaceutical companies are planning on making a lot of money out of it.

The sexist attitude, ( which is that men are the norm, against which women are measured ), is that women should/must want sex as often and as much as men, and if they don't they are dysfunctional, so let's give them a pill for it, rather than accepting that 33%-46% of women are very often ... etc, etc, etc, not that interested in sex.



How is it sexist???


It assumes that the 'normal' state for men is better than the 'normal' state for women. Like it would be sexist to give men a pill specifically to make them have female-level sex drives.



If such a pill existed, men's sex drive(and their moods :P ) would fluctuate on a (quasi)monthly basis rather than changing very slowly over time.



LKL
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28 Dec 2008, 8:37 pm

^ A monthly fluctuation would be more stable than the standard male daily fluctuation (ie, morning wood).



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31 Dec 2008, 1:31 am

Actually, in the 18th Century, children were looked upon as future capital, and an inconvenience until they could help out around the farm or elsewhere. As soon as they could work, they were made to work. They were treated like little adults.

Reproduction, gender roles, children, etc., are a continuously-changing standard. What my generation thought was feminism (we should be men), has been changed by our daughters and granddaughters (well, not mine, she's too young). to (we should have the same opportunities as men). Who knows where it will be 50 years from now (dig me up and tell me, if you would...;)



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31 Dec 2008, 10:11 am

LKL wrote:

Quote:
It assumes that the 'normal' state for men is better than the 'normal' state for women. Like it would be sexist to give men a pill specifically to make them have female-level sex drives.


Give me a pill to squash my sex drive. :lol: That will help me focus more.

Why would anyone want to be bothered with a high sex drive? Society would be better off if we were asexual. There would be more intellectuals and not so many competitive, frustrated people.

You have to admit that men have higher sex drives. Society should allow them to be gay. Did you know that dolphins are gay?
It's true. They only mate with the females when she is ready to have a baby. They tend to have long male-male pair bonds.
The females nurture the development of the offspring. Dolphins are so cool. 8)



slowmutant
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31 Dec 2008, 10:21 am

Quote:
Society would be better off if we were asexual


Did you think this through?