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Is Atheism a threat to Freedom

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ruveyn
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14 Nov 2010, 4:03 pm

Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
No, I pointing out from a Freudian standpoint that would be considered to be irrational, because we are only supposed to be thinking of ourselves and passing on our genes.

Nope. We are genetically predisposed to care about eachother. We are a flock animal. We're more like lions than snakes in that respect. We are genetically predisposed to care about others in our flock. But as societies have developed, the flock concept has gotten a bit confusing. Some of us end up seeing all of humanity as the flock, while others might have narrower views. Then of course there are sociopaths, who have no concept of a flock.


We are too individualistic to be herd animals and we are certainly not hive animals. Let us say that we are social animals living in the tension between the Group and the Self.

ruveyn



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14 Nov 2010, 4:05 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
No, I pointing out from a Freudian standpoint that would be considered to be irrational, because we are only supposed to be thinking of ourselves and passing on our genes.

Nope. We are genetically predisposed to care about eachother. We are a flock animal. We're more like lions than snakes in that respect. We are genetically predisposed to care about others in our flock. But as societies have developed, the flock concept has gotten a bit confusing. Some of us end up seeing all of humanity as the flock, while others might have narrower views. Then of course there are sociopaths, who have no concept of a flock.


We are too individualistic to be herd animals and we are certainly not hive animals. Let us say that we are social animals living in the tension between the Group and the Self.

ruveyn

I'll grant that. I suppose social animal was the term I was searching for.


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Inuyasha
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14 Nov 2010, 4:09 pm

Vince wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
No, I pointing out from a Freudian standpoint that would be considered to be irrational, because we are only supposed to be thinking of ourselves and passing on our genes.

Nope. We are genetically predisposed to care about eachother. We are a flock animal. We're more like lions than snakes in that respect. We are genetically predisposed to care about others in our flock. But as societies have developed, the flock concept has gotten a bit confusing. Some of us end up seeing all of humanity as the flock, while others might have narrower views. Then of course there are sociopaths, who have no concept of a flock.


We are too individualistic to be herd animals and we are certainly not hive animals. Let us say that we are social animals living in the tension between the Group and the Self.

ruveyn

I'll grant that. I suppose social animal was the term I was searching for.


Being an animal that likes interacting with other animals of its own kind doesn't mean one should rationally assist someone when there is absolutely no benefit from your standpoint.



ruveyn
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14 Nov 2010, 4:10 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Being an animal that likes interacting with other animals of its own kind doesn't mean one should rationally assist someone when there is absolutely no benefit from your standpoint.


We are rational part time.

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14 Nov 2010, 4:20 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:

Being an animal that likes interacting with other animals of its own kind doesn't mean one should rationally assist someone when there is absolutely no benefit from your standpoint.


We are rational part time.

ruveyn


Or how about putting your own life in jeopardy to protect a total stranger, by the Freudian definition they would be insane.



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14 Nov 2010, 4:23 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Or how about putting your own life in jeopardy to protect a total stranger, by the Freudian definition they would be insane.

Who cares what Freud would have thought? Many of his ideas aren't considered legitimate in modern psychology.


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14 Nov 2010, 4:26 pm

Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Or how about putting your own life in jeopardy to protect a total stranger, by the Freudian definition they would be insane.

Who cares what Freud would have thought? Many of his ideas aren't considered legitimate in modern psychology.


So his ideas aren't legitimate when they happen to be inconveinent, I'm just using your own rationale against you.



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14 Nov 2010, 4:27 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Or how about putting your own life in jeopardy to protect a total stranger, by the Freudian definition they would be insane.

Who cares what Freud would have thought? Many of his ideas aren't considered legitimate in modern psychology.


So his ideas aren't legitimate when they happen to be inconveinent, I'm just using your own rationale against you.

When have I ever cited Freud?


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14 Nov 2010, 4:32 pm

Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Or how about putting your own life in jeopardy to protect a total stranger, by the Freudian definition they would be insane.

Who cares what Freud would have thought? Many of his ideas aren't considered legitimate in modern psychology.


So his ideas aren't legitimate when they happen to be inconveinent, I'm just using your own rationale against you.

When have I ever cited Freud?


Oh sorry, the argument about us being herd animals, social animals, whatever just sounds so similar to Freud.

It also explains why people will put themselves in harm's way even to protect individuals that are not "of the herd."



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14 Nov 2010, 4:49 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Or how about putting your own life in jeopardy to protect a total stranger, by the Freudian definition they would be insane.

Who cares what Freud would have thought? Many of his ideas aren't considered legitimate in modern psychology.


So his ideas aren't legitimate when they happen to be inconveinent, I'm just using your own rationale against you.

When have I ever cited Freud?


Oh sorry, the argument about us being herd animals, social animals, whatever just sounds so similar to Freud.

It also explains why people will put themselves in harm's way even to protect individuals that are not "of the herd."

A lot of people have used to the term "herd". Nietzsche is known for this for instance. That being said, the language of "herd" really isn't unique to Freud any more.



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14 Nov 2010, 4:51 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Or how about putting your own life in jeopardy to protect a total stranger, by the Freudian definition they would be insane.

Who cares what Freud would have thought? Many of his ideas aren't considered legitimate in modern psychology.


So his ideas aren't legitimate when they happen to be inconveinent, I'm just using your own rationale against you.

When have I ever cited Freud?


Oh sorry, the argument about us being herd animals, social animals, whatever just sounds so similar to Freud.

It also explains why people will put themselves in harm's way even to protect individuals that are not "of the herd."

A lot of people have used to the term "herd". Nietzsche is known for this for instance. That being said, the language of "herd" really isn't unique to Freud any more.


Still your view of humanity is rather depressing.



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14 Nov 2010, 4:55 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Still your view of humanity is rather depressing.

From what I can see, Awesomelyglorious's view isn't depressing at all. What's depressing about the observation that humans are capable of being kind and selfless without expecting to gain anything else from it than the satisfaction of being kind?


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Last edited by Vince on 14 Nov 2010, 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Inuyasha
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14 Nov 2010, 4:57 pm

Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Still your view of humanity is rather depressing.

From what I can see, Awesomelyglorious's view isn't depressing at all. What's depressing about the observation that humans are capable of being kind and selfless without expecting to gain anything else from it than the satisfaction of being kind?


No you have not explained why humans will act to save someone outside the herd, or even endanger themselves to save a dog or a cat. That is putting oneself in harm's way for no benefit.



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14 Nov 2010, 5:00 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Still your view of humanity is rather depressing.

From what I can see, Awesomelyglorious's view isn't depressing at all. What's depressing about the observation that humans are capable of being kind and selfless without expecting to gain anything else from it than the satisfaction of being kind?


No you have not explained why humans will act to save someone outside the herd, or even endanger themselves to save a dog or a cat. That is putting oneself in harm's way for no benefit.

Like I mentioned earlier, the herd has kind of become a loose concept. You might save a dog or cat because you've gotten to the point where you even think of pets as part of the herd.


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Inuyasha
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14 Nov 2010, 5:04 pm

Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Still your view of humanity is rather depressing.

From what I can see, Awesomelyglorious's view isn't depressing at all. What's depressing about the observation that humans are capable of being kind and selfless without expecting to gain anything else from it than the satisfaction of being kind?


No you have not explained why humans will act to save someone outside the herd, or even endanger themselves to save a dog or a cat. That is putting oneself in harm's way for no benefit.

Like I mentioned earlier, the herd has kind of become a loose concept. You might save a dog or cat because you've gotten to the point where you even think of pets as part of the herd.


There is a point where that explanation doesn't hold water anymore.



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14 Nov 2010, 5:08 pm

Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Still your view of humanity is rather depressing.

From what I can see, Awesomelyglorious's view isn't depressing at all. What's depressing about the observation that humans are capable of being kind and selfless without expecting to gain anything else from it than the satisfaction of being kind?

Well, actually, I haven't mentioned anything to be depressed about.

I would really bet that my view of humanity encompasses both great and inspiring things, and really really depressing things.

I think that the future will actually be a better future for most of humanity. I think that most people who go through difficult times will be happy again. I think that in practice, most people are capable of having knowledge, and even having knowledge that other people cannot/do not have. I think that people are relatively rational, and capable of improvement(not as a group, but individually). I think that individuals, if given enough time, can eventually discover ways to solve many of their problems. I also think that people are not what they think they are down at the fundamentals of their neurology. I think that free will in the libertarian sense does not exist, and that whether it exists compatibilistically is a question, depending a lot on neurological facts and definitions. I think that really understanding another person as they understand themselves is impossible, and that this can make caring for others and identifying with them very difficult. I think love does not conquer all, but rather that greed and fear have a bit more power.