Are Jews Basically "Fellow Christians?"

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NKUSA stands for "Naturey Karta USA". Naturey Karta is a small sect of Orthodox Jews who believe that Jews were supposed to wait until Messiah before they move to Israel. So, since Messiah haven't arrived yet, Israel shouldn't exist. As a result of this view they often side with worlds antisemites because of shared anti-Israel agenda. For example, a lot of Naturey Karta members have shown up on Iran's conference that denies holocaust, among many other antisemitic events.

By the way I find their argument very similar to the argument Christians use who oppose Israel. The Christian version of the argument is that there should be heavenly Jerusalem that will descend upon second comming of Jesus and, therfore, its earthly version should be opposed. So the arguments are really the same if only you remove "comming of the Messiah" (in Naturey Karta version) with "second comming of Jesus (in Christian version).

Also, Naturey Karta claims they are not antisemitic because the TRUE Jews are opposed to zionism. THus, they are basically saying that mainstream Jewish view of today is not a legitimate Judaism, while the only legitimate Judaism is the one represented by Naturey Karta. Again, it is logically very similar to what Christians would say. According to Christians, the "true Judaism" is the Christianity, while rabinic Judaism is not true any more.

The only difference is exactly WHAT each side considers "illegitimate". Christian antisemites would say that todays Jews are not really Jews, while Naturey Karta would say that Jews (especially THEIR version of it) ARE real Jews but Zionism is not a real Judaism.

Logically, the two are very similar to each other. But I don't think either side will acknowledge these similarities since each side only embraces their OWN version of the argument. After all Naturey Karta reject Chrsitianity just like the rest of the Orthodox Jews do.

Holding up the sign?

If you are going to quote someone out of context I suggest you stay sober while doing it, that doesn't even make any sense.

no walking off camera to the left I am secular.
I just wanted to show the diversity of belief about Israel within Judaism.
Even the haredim in Israel are lukewarm in their zionism (for example they refuse national service.)
Zionism had its start not with the religious but with secular socialists.
Kibbutz anyone?

Interesting and to me new. Logical enough.

Never heard that particular position in a Christian mouth - but there is a lot of variety there.

As the guy in Zion says, beware the natural reasoning mind. Systematizing the incomprehensible and categorizing the ineffable.

Only because of your bad grammar. You must be drunk when you start typing here. Otherwise, your grammar and spelling would be more conventional.

Oh-oh. Inuyasha will now either accuse you of lying, or suddenly turn anti-Israel.

Saying that Zionism started with secular socialists would be a bit like claiming that the American Revolution was motivated by anything other than pure Christianity against that evil Secular tyrant, King George.

Don't be so bloedig Lyndon. You don't even have an apple.

By the way, your example about America is not a very good one. I, myself, often wonder why US constitution is treated as synonimous with Christian values. I mean it was written almost two millenia after the Bible. I do agree that true Christian would favor republicans over democrates, because of GENERAL issues, such as homosexuality, abortion and so forth. And it "might" be true that true Christian will support the values that HAPPEN to appear in USA constitution. But that would ONLY be because these values "happened" to agree with the Bible. Why do anything BECAUSE of "US constitution" if the Biblical issues we are talking about are much much older than USA.

QFS

Not sure what QFS means, but to expand on Roman's remarks, the Constitution has its roots in Judeo-Christian values.

Anyways something interesting I ran across:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Were_any_of_t ... n_religion

If it wasn't for Jewish People we might not have had a country:
Salomon, Haym (1740-1785) Financier: Salomon immigrated from Poland (His father was a Rabbi in Poland, who moved there from Portugal.) to New York at the age of 32. He set up business as a bill-broker, purchasing and selling currencies at a discount.

By 1776 he was involved in the move for independence and was imprisoned by the British as a spy. During the course of the Revolution he was almost hanged by the British, had all his property seized and narrowly escaped to Philadelphia. In Philadelphia he began to negotiate the sale of Continental currency for hard French and Dutch bills. Asking for a nearly negligible commission on transactions, he made himself available for Congress, which appointed him official Broker to the Office of Finance of the United States, The French consulate appointed him Treasurer of the French Army in America. Salomon was able to maintain a thriving private business in addition to his official duties, despite his interest-free personal loans to such government officials as James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, General von Steuben, and General St. Clair.

Haym managed to keep finances coming to the struggling Continental Army. He loaned a lot of his own funds to the cause. He is considered the financial hero of the Revolution. In 1783, after the war, a fraction of the money was actually repaid.

Nevertheless, by the time Salomon died at the age of 45, private individuals and the government reputedly still owed him $638,000. Although Salomon never presented a claim for repayment, his son, Haym B. Salomon, petitioned for such repayment after his father's death. Other descendants continued to petition Congress, although they gave up on repayment and simply requested that a commemorative medal be issued in honor of Salomon the "Financier of the Revolution."

This request was has not been fulfilled, but the Jewish community in Chicago raised funds themselves, and, in 1941, presented a park statue of George Washington, with Robert Morris and Haym Salomon on either side. Other statues were later erected in Salomon's honor in New York and Los Angeles.
In 1975 the United States Postal Service issued a commemorative stamp honoring Haym Saloman for his contributions to the cause of the American Revolution. This stamp, like others in the "Contributors to the Cause" series, was printed on the front and the back. On the glue side of the stamp, the following words were printed in pale, green ink:

"Financial Hero-Businessman and broker Haym Solomon was responsible for raising most of the money needed to finance the American Revolution and later to save the new nation from collapse." The Congressional Record of March 25, 1975 reads, "When Morris was appointed Superintendent of Finance, he turned to Solomon for help in raising the money needed to carry on the war and later to save the emerging nation from financial collapse. Solomon advanced direct loans to the government and also gave generously of his own resources to pay the salaries of government officials and army officers. With frequent entries of 'I sent for Haym Solomon,' Morris' diary for the years 1781-84 records some 75 transactions between the two men."

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Were_any_of_t ... z1SZTHI1qu

Trust me, I fancy myself a Christian, and I vote Democrat because I believe taking care of those in need, and opposing bigotry and racism, as well as providing workers with a wage they're worthy of is more keeping with Christ's message.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Ach, Gott, what is by YOU now a "true Christian"? The only "true Christians" I know of, me, are those who follow the Christ's example. Which party did Jesus favor? Which party's supporters were comfortable with Jesus?

If the relative age of US Constitution and Bible is by you such an issue, why does Jesus talk down some points of the OLD Testament?

A "true Christian" - ein echter Mensch - will favor a thinking reasonable Democrat over a spit-back knee-jerk [and I do mean jerk] Republican any day. And vice versa [mutatis mutandis, the Minded will know what I am saying].

Amen, brother.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

QFS = quoted for stupid