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How can anyone with AS be a conservative?

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marshall
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15 Aug 2011, 1:18 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Too idiosyncratic to categorize according to the conventional left-right spectrum? What? I thought he has always made it clear that he's a libertarian.


Yes, and most right-libertarians like to claim that their mix of "social liberalism and fiscal conservatism" is so mind-blowing that the conventional left-right spectrum can't capture them, so they should be categorized based on stuff like the Nolan Chart.

I would reserve the term libertarian for those who care about real personal liberties, not merely "economic freedoms" (such as the "freedom" to pay low/no taxes and the "freedom" to pollute the environment). Non-religious "fiscal" conservatives who opine constantly over taxes and government spending, might support gay marriage, but otherwise don't seem care much either way when it comes to other issues involving personal privacy and individual liberty, don't count as libertarian in my book. These people are nothing more than secular Republicans. Also, the political right is becoming more and more secular these days, especially with the younger generation.



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15 Aug 2011, 1:25 am

AspieRogue wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
How is someone that worked at a business for 30+ years that retired and is now a millionaire because they did well with their investments, evil?


It DOESN'T make them "evil", it makes them pretty damn Lucky! Most retirees aren't millionaires, and furthermore most millionaires made their fortune long before they retired. I am not trying to vilify the rich by any stretch of the imagination. What I'm saying is that it is not enough to succeed, others must fail. Capitalism is a zero-sum game. :wink:


Well, for what it's worth, when my Dad had retired from Kaiser Aluminum, he had to live on a company pension and social security. My Dad had worked his ass off his whole life, played by all the rules, and never once got rich.

Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



blunnet
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15 Aug 2011, 1:29 am

Which goes along with some conservatives thinking that the poor is poor because they deserve it.



Last edited by blunnet on 15 Aug 2011, 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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15 Aug 2011, 1:38 am

blunnet wrote:
With goes along with some conservatives thinking that the poor is poor because they deserve it.


And if they think the poor deserve to be poor, the rich figure that means they must deserve to be rich. Those conservatives intertwined in evangelical theology, particularly those who embrace the prosperity gospel, use religion to justify their notions of the rich getting rewarded for being good, and the poor being punished for being bad.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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15 Aug 2011, 3:56 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
Doesn't matter, as most of my references to your past post either refer to past positions you still hold, past positions that explain why I have to cite your positions exactly, or are in acknowledgement that you "changed your mind" (i.e. backtracked).


That's very enlightening, in your mind it's "backtracking" to waver from a fixed opinion when new information emerges or a new thought occurs, it explains a lot. I was 25 and newly diagnosed when I first arrived here, and as part of the aging and acceptance process I've reevaluated some of my past opinions, that's what most people do when they mature. That's beside the point however, as is this whole little detour.

Notice that this is a thread about AS people and Conservatism, not a thread about Dox47 and why he's really just a conservative in disguise, which is where you've tried to take it. And not for the first time I might add, going after me personally seems to be a long term goal for you.

This is your issue, you always try to make it about the person behind the argument and not the argument it itself, and that's both bad debating technique and bad forum etiquette. When I mentioned the, uh, unusual level of scrutiny you seemed to put into following my posts looking for dirt to throw later, 3 completely different posters piped up that they too had noticed this about you, and not in a good way. Clearly your MO has been noted, and so far the vote seems to be leaning towards "creepy", never a good look IMHO.

I could go on, but that would be violating two of my personal principles of PPR; attacking the poster rather than the post, and acting as if personal attacks mean anything to me. My posting record speaks for itself, as does yours.


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zer0netgain
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15 Aug 2011, 8:31 am

I'm not reading 14 pages to answer.

I'm conservative because I see how most of all the liberal policies are not only failures, but based on dangerous anti-American ideologies.

America was founded and made great by people who didn't want someone doing stuff for them....people who wanted to build, create, innovate, etc.

More and more we see a push to let government do everything for you. While some level of "safety net" in society is desirable, it can quickly become a trap for everyone.

I know many people with serious disabilities who go out and work for a living. They don't draw SSI. They do not want to live on the government dole...or dependent upon it for survival. I know too many people who see nothing wrong with letting someone else support them so they can sit around and play video games or watch TV all day. Many of these will go out and work...under the table...for extra money.

Life mandates that you wipe your own ass. It sucks if you are the one who gets the raw deal in life, but a whole lot of people in as bad (or worse) a situation as your own suck it up and do something because they refuse to be treated as an object of pity or live dependent on the charity of others. I have a hard time finding compassion for those who CAN work but CHOOSE not to. I have no trouble wanting to help someone who is making an honest effort to support themselves.

I don't think anyone is ENTITLED to have someone else carry them through life.



AceOfSpades
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15 Aug 2011, 9:49 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Too idiosyncratic to categorize according to the conventional left-right spectrum? What? I thought he has always made it clear that he's a libertarian.


Yes, and most right-libertarians like to claim that their mix of "social liberalism and fiscal conservatism" is so mind-blowing that the conventional left-right spectrum can't capture them, so they should be categorized based on stuff like the Nolan Chart.

I once called him "rightwing" and he got mad.

http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/postxf135705 ... 85fae52a5b

In that thread he puts me on the "left fringe of Wrong Planet", next to violent revolution advocate Xenon13. How he mixes reformist social democrats with solidly anti-capitalist Proletarian revolutionists is beyond me. He later backtracked, though, and said that the most people have too many different views to accurately categorize with the left-right spectrum.

Dox47 wrote:
M_P thinks that I'm secretly a far right extremist pretending to be reasonable, presumably so that I can fool a small AS politics forum into doing something or another, it breaks down around that point.


:roll: Way to completely miss the point, beside isn't that your exact opinion - that you're "too idiosyncratic" to be captured by the left-right spectrum?

Regardless, for someone who complains about people having a long memory, you sure don't seem to be letting go of the fact that I called you a "militia rightist" several months to a year ago. Which I did for a few reasons:

  • You used to have a picture of a man holding a gun with the custom rank "Ethical Aspie Assassin".
  • You posted a thread (that was subsequently taken down) about a system for killing bureaucrats via assassination.

Now, perhaps I jumped the gun ( :) ) in that assessment, but there was half-decent evidence at the time.

Dox47 wrote:
Really though, he's my biggest fan, notice the encyclopaedic knowledge of my posts, right down to the phrasing, I mean it's been at least a few months since I called this place an echo chamber.


Months ago you whined about me falsely attributing beliefs to you, mischaracterizing your views, and attributing particular statements via to a dead thread (the Assassination system one, which was deleted off the forum). So I carefully read your views and get the response that I'm "your biggest fan". It's an interesting scam you have here, deflection mechanisms at both points (reading you casually or reading you enough to thoroughly guage your views).

And the funny thing about the "echo-chamber" thing is that you said that in a thread where I was ARGUING AGAINST YOU. Of course, I'd probably reflect on that statement so as to verify whether it's a fair criticism and have compared WP to various other forums to see how fair an assessment that is.
8O

Get a life holy.



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15 Aug 2011, 2:26 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
I'm not reading 14 pages to answer.

I'm conservative because I see how most of all the liberal policies are not only failures, but based on dangerous anti-American ideologies.

America was founded and made great by people who didn't want someone doing stuff for them....people who wanted to build, create, innovate, etc.

More and more we see a push to let government do everything for you. While some level of "safety net" in society is desirable, it can quickly become a trap for everyone.

I know many people with serious disabilities who go out and work for a living. They don't draw SSI. They do not want to live on the government dole...or dependent upon it for survival. I know too many people who see nothing wrong with letting someone else support them so they can sit around and play video games or watch TV all day. Many of these will go out and work...under the table...for extra money.

Life mandates that you wipe your own ass. It sucks if you are the one who gets the raw deal in life, but a whole lot of people in as bad (or worse) a situation as your own suck it up and do something because they refuse to be treated as an object of pity or live dependent on the charity of others. I have a hard time finding compassion for those who CAN work but CHOOSE not to. I have no trouble wanting to help someone who is making an honest effort to support themselves.

I don't think anyone is ENTITLED to have someone else carry them through life.


You've just repeated a whole lot of American mythology. Sure, there have been plenty of people who have become successes in this country. And it's great when people with disabilities make it in the work place - when they can find employers who'll hire them. But that's the exception, not the rule. Before the social safety net, few people actually lived to a ripe old age, and often lived with undernourishment. The truth was, the good old days were hardly that great.
And since when is altruism and compassion not American traits?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



AspieRogue

15 Aug 2011, 6:03 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
I'm not reading 14 pages to answer.

I'm conservative because I see how most of all the liberal policies are not only failures, but based on dangerous anti-American ideologies.

America was founded and made great by people who didn't want someone doing stuff for them....people who wanted to build, create, innovate, etc.

More and more we see a push to let government do everything for you. While some level of "safety net" in society is desirable, it can quickly become a trap for everyone.

I know many people with serious disabilities who go out and work for a living. They don't draw SSI. They do not want to live on the government dole...or dependent upon it for survival. I know too many people who see nothing wrong with letting someone else support them so they can sit around and play video games or watch TV all day. Many of these will go out and work...under the table...for extra money.

Life mandates that you wipe your own ass. It sucks if you are the one who gets the raw deal in life, but a whole lot of people in as bad (or worse) a situation as your own suck it up and do something because they refuse to be treated as an object of pity or live dependent on the charity of others. I have a hard time finding compassion for those who CAN work but CHOOSE not to. I have no trouble wanting to help someone who is making an honest effort to support themselves.

I don't think anyone is ENTITLED to have someone else carry them through life.


You've just repeated a whole lot of American mythology. Sure, there have been plenty of people who have become successes in this country. And it's great when people with disabilities make it in the work place - when they can find employers who'll hire them. But that's the exception, not the rule.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Exactly! There are a lot of disabled people who easily COULD work but don't get the chance. And in the case of aspies it's because they lack the social networking skills that are crucial to landing a good job in today's American workplace. I'm beginning to see the sort of conservatives posting ITT as being rather naive and idealistic; which are traits associated with liberals and particularly with "progressives".



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15 Aug 2011, 6:23 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
I'm not reading 14 pages to answer.

I'm conservative because I see how most of all the liberal policies are not only failures, but based on dangerous anti-American ideologies.

America was founded and made great by people who didn't want someone doing stuff for them....people who wanted to build, create, innovate, etc.

More and more we see a push to let government do everything for you. While some level of "safety net" in society is desirable, it can quickly become a trap for everyone.

I know many people with serious disabilities who go out and work for a living. They don't draw SSI. They do not want to live on the government dole...or dependent upon it for survival. I know too many people who see nothing wrong with letting someone else support them so they can sit around and play video games or watch TV all day. Many of these will go out and work...under the table...for extra money.

Life mandates that you wipe your own ass. It sucks if you are the one who gets the raw deal in life, but a whole lot of people in as bad (or worse) a situation as your own suck it up and do something because they refuse to be treated as an object of pity or live dependent on the charity of others. I have a hard time finding compassion for those who CAN work but CHOOSE not to. I have no trouble wanting to help someone who is making an honest effort to support themselves.

I don't think anyone is ENTITLED to have someone else carry them through life.


You've just repeated a whole lot of American mythology. Sure, there have been plenty of people who have become successes in this country. And it's great when people with disabilities make it in the work place - when they can find employers who'll hire them. But that's the exception, not the rule. Before the social safety net, few people actually lived to a ripe old age, and often lived with undernourishment. The truth was, the good old days were hardly that great.
And since when is altruism and compassion not American traits?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Yeah, I've seen both sides of the fence, and to be perfectly frank, my employer happens to be a Conservative, not a liberal and if they had the hours for me to become a full time employee, he'd do that. A company has to turn a profit in order to stay in business. At the same token I once did volunteer work at a local library and tried to turn that into a paid job since hey I like being around books, and the supervisor said they weren't interested and I was too high maintainence. Then she proceeded to insult me behind my back, in a conversation to my mother. Well I have a college degree and I doubt she does, and if the economy hadn't tanked when I graduated I would have a well paying job (unfortunately the manufacturing sector isn't recovering courtesy of the current President's anti-job policies.

My boss pushes me to improve on my skills and work on compensating for my weaknesses, and I am considered a valuable employee. He let me have a few monthes off for an internship last year at Goddard Space Flight Center, and they expressed some interest in me, but then they said they couldn't because my degree had "technology" in the title, but it was fine for me to be an intern. So I'm really glad I still had my part-time job to go back to.

I was taking classes to stay current, but I can't this fall because the internship had wiped out my savings, and while I managed to scrape enough together to take courses last fall and last spring, I don't have the money this year, and I refuse to spend money I don't have.

I don't blame people that are better off than me though, cause quite frankly it isn't their fault.

So don't start with this bull**** about us not knowing what's it like, because I know, and I'm not going to buy into the blame the rich garbage.



AspieRogue

15 Aug 2011, 6:40 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

I don't blame people that are better off than me though, cause quite frankly it isn't their fault.

So don't start with this bull**** about us not knowing what's it like, because I know, and I'm not going to buy into the blame the rich garbage.



I really hope you realize, despite you scoffing at my posts, that I am Not into vilifying "the rich" like most whiny "progressives"! The aim of my posts is to dispel this mythology that if you work hard(enough) and have a positive attitude, things will always work out for you in the end. Life is actually not a meritocracy, not even here in the "land of opportunity"(USA). If you're goal is to work your way up to the top, those who are above you are your opponents. Then again, IDK what your personal objectives in life are.



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15 Aug 2011, 6:51 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:

I don't blame people that are better off than me though, cause quite frankly it isn't their fault.

So don't start with this bull**** about us not knowing what's it like, because I know, and I'm not going to buy into the blame the rich garbage.



I really hope you realize, despite you scoffing at my posts, that I am Not into vilifying "the rich" like most whiny "progressives"! The aim of my posts is to dispel this mythology that if you work hard(enough) and have a positive attitude, things will always work out for you in the end. Life is actually not a meritocracy, not even here in the "land of opportunity"(USA). If you're goal is to work your way up to the top, those who are above you are your opponents. Then again, IDK what your personal objectives in life are.


Well yeah, Democrats I would argue want as many people dependent on government as possible, so they have a voting base locked in place.



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15 Aug 2011, 7:29 pm

:?
It seems as though it’s the consensus of the liberals on this forum is that all of the conservatives with Asperger’s have been given special breaks in life or were born into wealthy and/or influential families and never had to struggle.
That we have no concept of struggling, setbacks, depression, disappointment, frustration, etc….
No, the difference is that we’ve either chosen to or been forced by circumstance to charge through and do what must be done to get by ANYWAY!



AspieRogue

15 Aug 2011, 7:37 pm

Raptor wrote:
:?
It seems as though it’s the consensus of the liberals on this forum is that all of the conservatives with Asperger’s have been given special breaks in life or were born into wealthy and/or influential families and never had to struggle.
That we have no concept of struggling, setbacks, depression, disappointment, frustration, etc….
No, the difference is that we’ve either chosen to or been forced by circumstance to charge through and do what must be done to get by ANYWAY!



Nice strawman you got there.



Last edited by AspieRogue on 15 Aug 2011, 7:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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15 Aug 2011, 7:41 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Raptor wrote:
:?
It seems as though it’s the consensus of the liberals on this forum is that all of the conservatives with Asperger’s have been given special breaks in life or were born into wealthy and/or influential families and never had to struggle.
That we have no concept of struggling, setbacks, depression, disappointment, frustration, etc….
No, the difference is that we’ve either chosen to or been forced by circumstance to charge through and do what must be done to get by ANYWAY!



Nice strawman you got there.


If that's what you want to call the TRUTH.....
:roll:



Inuyasha
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15 Aug 2011, 7:41 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Raptor wrote:
:?
It seems as though it’s the consensus of the liberals on this forum is that all of the conservatives with Asperger’s have been given special breaks in life or were born into wealthy and/or influential families and never had to struggle.
That we have no concept of struggling, setbacks, depression, disappointment, frustration, etc….
No, the difference is that we’ve either chosen to or been forced by circumstance to charge through and do what must be done to get by ANYWAY!



Nice strawman you got there.


It's not a strawman argument.

One reason I have a profound dislike of the left, is because of their arrogant tendency to talk down to me, and acting like I'm somehow incapable or defective. Conservatives that I have run into over the years, have pushed me to try to overcome my difficulties, they understand that I have problems, but they think I should still strive to do better instead of simply giving up.