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puddingmouse
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22 Nov 2011, 7:43 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:

puddingmouse, I am sorry you had to read this, and I understand you might be offended by this. I think you have to make a thread stating how you had to leave because of Ragtime's complete refusal to take your question seriously and come back in a couple hours to reply here. This appeared to have helped some people post again on this forum.

I'm not offended. I know that Ragtime the person isn't saying that I'm damned, it's Ragtime the Christian, if that makes any sense. He doesn't know the first thing about me as a person, beyond the fact that I don't like his God. His religion tells him that I'm going to be damned because I reject his God. He has to toe the party line, in this matter.

Hence, it's not personal. I've never personally attacked Ragtime (I have no reason or desire to), just his God. Ragtime says that by the rules of his religion, I'm foolish and damnable. Since I don't believe in his religion, I don't care.

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shrox
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22 Nov 2011, 8:42 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

shrox wrote:

It does say Hell is not made for man, but rather Lucifer and the fallen angels. I read that as immortal life in Paradise for all, but access to the Holy of Holys only for those of faith.

Even if Hell wasn't made for man, it was still made, presumably by the same guy who made everything else. He also made Lucifer and the fallen angels, with the foreknowledge that these angels would fall. What sort of being would do this? I don't think I need to answer that question.

Well, one day, we might very well have to answer that question then. If AI (artificial intelligence) is indeed feasible, do we have the right to turn it off once we realize it's self-aware, conciseness and has a ToM? Answer this realistically, and you might have an inkling of an answer.

puddingmouse
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22 Nov 2011, 8:55 pm

shrox wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

shrox wrote:

It does say Hell is not made for man, but rather Lucifer and the fallen angels. I read that as immortal life in Paradise for all, but access to the Holy of Holys only for those of faith.

We don't have the foreknowledge of God to know what the AI is going to do, so the analogy does not apply.

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hyperlexian
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22 Nov 2011, 9:53 pm

DC wrote:

How exactly is damning someone and calling them wilfully foolish any more or less offensive than the words delusional, ignorant or stupid?

Mods any comments? Or is the pot allowed to call the kettle black?

do you care if you get damned to hell? it doesn't matter to me so it is not insulting to me personally. if you tell a christian they are damned to rot in the ground with no afterlife, or that they'd be damned to reincarnation, they'd probably not care either as it is a non-issue according to their beliefs.

since i know my own truths it doesn't matter to me what their truths are, or what they think of me and my eternal damnation or whatever. is it insulting to you to hear that you are damned? i am asking honestly as i lack the understanding to see the insult there.

DC wrote:

And here we have a christian calling someone 'wilfully foolish'.

if he actually called a person "wilfully foolish" i agree it could definitely be a concern. but he isn't; it's a rhetorical question, along the lines of "can you turn your back on god and still make it into heaven?".

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22 Nov 2011, 11:06 pm

After several centuries of enlightenment thinking and progress, I find it insulting that people will utterly reject scientific reality but still demand all that it provides.

I find it insulting to reason that these people are constantly given an elevated platform to espouse demonstrably false claims by the current doctrine of 'hear both sides' and claim protection from criticism on the basis that they have 'faith'.

I find it particularly insulting to reason that at a time when the NHS is having it's budget slashed the NHS can still find millions of pounds each year to provide homoeopathy on the NHS because current doctrine holds fantastical thinking to be more valid than empirical evidence.

And I am flabbergasted that after the events of the last decade the government of my country greatly increased the flow of taxpayer's money to organisations that have repeatedly been shown to indoctrinate children into fundamentalism and extremism in the schools they run. Instead of tackling the issue the government simply exempted them from the school inspection regime.

So yes, in a way you could say I'm offended.

I just don't run crying to moderators to attempt to silence their voice.

Moog
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23 Nov 2011, 6:39 am

DC wrote:

I just don't run crying to moderators to attempt to silence their voice.

NHS spending is out of our jurisdiction anyway

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Ragtime
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23 Nov 2011, 11:00 am

DC wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Also, why does God award these goodies of eternal life only to those who buy into His son's story? If He was so great, why would he care if I believed in him? If He was so benevolent, why would he be so petty?

The above is what I call -- with precision -- "a damnable attitude".

Quote:

Here we have a christian 'damning' someone, with precision no less for their attitude.

Don't bother -- everyone knows I didn't damn anyone. There is a clear difference between damning someone, and simply calling a damnable attitude what it is in clear light of Scripture. Clearly, God does not consider pm's post salvatory words by any means. I doubt you think that anyone would. Don't even try to say that I sit in judgment. I echo Jesus in saying, "I seek not my own glory: [but] there is one who seeks and judges" (Jn 8:50). Just as when Jesus said that, the statement is informative, not damning. "And if any man hear [Jesus'] words, and believe not, I judge him not. He that rejects [Jesus], and receives not [His] words, has one that judges him: the word that [Jesus] has spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (Jn 12:47-48). This is information only. If I say "He who jumps off a cliff will die", that's not standing in judgment of someone, it's stating a principle.

Quote:

The final question for you to ask in the quoted post is, "And why should God bother to save someone who would be as much of a jerk as I'm being to Him right now?" And the beauty of the question is that it answers itself.

Maybe you really can be so wilfully foolish that you can find your own way to Hell, while all the while Salvation is free.

Quote:

And here we have a christian calling someone 'wilfully foolish'.

Wouldn't you call giving up Heaven for Hell by mere choice foolish? That's self-evident foolishness. Again, the truth I expressed is in a demonstrated principle, not a subjective opinion.

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Ragtime
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23 Nov 2011, 11:20 am

shrox wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

The above is what I call -- with precision -- "a damnable attitude".

The final question for you to ask in the quoted post is, "And why should God bother to save someone who would be as much of a jerk as I'm being to Him right now?" And the beauty of the question is that it answers itself.

Maybe you really can be so wilfully foolish that you can find your own way to Hell, while all the while Salvation is free.

It does say Hell is not made for man, but rather Lucifer and the fallen angels. I read that as immortal life in Paradise for all, but access to the Holy of Holys only for those of faith.

Jesus does speak of people going to Hell, though.
"You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell?" Mt 23:22

(By the way, my detractors (not shrox) : Is this quoted verse less wrath than I am known, and criticized, for showing? Am I angry beyond the way Jesus is portrayed in the New Testament? Do I do a disservice to Jesus by my anger? Or do I often share in His anger on behalf of His doctrines?)

Again, Jesus said, "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation" (Mk 3:29).

And again, "They shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (Jn 5:29).

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are" (Mt 23:14-15).

I am constantly searching for ways in which I represent my Lord falsely, and am constantly attempting to remedy those.

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Ragtime
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23 Nov 2011, 11:51 am

puddingmouse wrote:

Why would God set a Jesus-based door policy on this Inner Court, anyway?

We could discuss why all day, but Jesus did say: "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture" (Jn 10:9).

related:
"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (Jn 14:6).

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shrox
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23 Nov 2011, 1:03 pm

Ragtime wrote:

shrox wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

It does say Hell is not made for man, but rather Lucifer and the fallen angels. I read that as immortal life in Paradise for all, but access to the Holy of Holys only for those of faith.

I believe he was speaking to all that can hear, fallen angels included. Humans do not "go to hell".

puddingmouse
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23 Nov 2011, 1:04 pm

Ragtime wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Why would God set a Jesus-based door policy on this Inner Court, anyway?

It just seems a bit of an arbitrary thing to do for an omnibenevolent being (who already knows if you're damned or saved).

Mind you, everything God does in the Bible is arbitrary to my eyes.

It's like He's saying, 'here is my Son, who is also Me. I will have him killed in order to save you from some vaguely-defined inherited sin. Believe in him or face the consquences! Btw, I already know what option you're going to pick.'

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Ragtime
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23 Nov 2011, 1:17 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Why would God set a Jesus-based door policy on this Inner Court, anyway?

It just seems a bit of an arbitrary thing to do for an omnibenevolent being (who already knows if you're damned or saved).

Mind you, everything God does in the Bible is arbitrary to my eyes.

I had an issue with your term "omnibenevolent" yesterday, but I didn't say so. The term may be inaccurate, depending on the exact meaning you're giving it. "All-loving", I buy -- and the meaning I ascribe to that term is multi-dimension, and is the universe to which He applies that love: He is all-loving, but that does not mean that every single thing He does -- even when viewed out of its particular context -- looks loving. Take His genocide in the Old Testament, for example. (Perhaps, then, you would withdraw your claim -- if indeed I am reading the claim right -- that the Bible represents God as "omnibenevolent", as in doing good to all creatures, both in terms of "the greater good", AND in terms of all lessor good.) The characterization, really, is inadequate for any god to deal with Earth -- with its Nazis and its saints both receiving benevolence.

Come to think of it, can even any of us live our lives for what we view as the "greater good" AND all "lessor good" acts, simultaneously? I believe there is a built-in impossibility in such an attempt. It would be like donating all your money to both orphans AND clean energy projects: All one's money cannot go to both the greater AND the lessor good.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 23 Nov 2011, 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

puddingmouse
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23 Nov 2011, 1:18 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Wouldn't you call giving up Heaven for Hell by mere choice foolish? That's self-evident foolishness. Again, the truth I expressed is in a demonstrated principle, not a subjective opinion.

Foolish, maybe, but I have my reasons. I consider it the more moral thing to do. I cannot abide being in Heaven whilst a Hell exists. I do not want to collude with a God who could smile on so much suffering in the world, and who could create a Hell.

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puddingmouse
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23 Nov 2011, 1:26 pm

Ragtime wrote:

I had an issue with your term "omnibenevolent" yesterday, but I didn't say so. The term may be inaccurate, depending on the exact meaning you're giving it. "All-loving", I buy -- and the meaning I ascribe to that term is multi-faceted: He is all-loving, but that does not mean that every single thing He does -- even when viewed out of its particular context -- looks loving. Take His genocide in the Old Testament, for example. (Perhaps, then, you would withdraw your claim -- if indeed I am reading the claim right -- that the Bible represents God as "omnibenevolent", as in doing good to all creatures, both in terms of "the greater good", AND all "lessor good" acts.) The characterization, really, is inadequate for any god to deal with Earth -- with its Nazis and its saints both receiving benevolence.

Even if you define 'benevolent' as all-loving, it hardly seems all-loving to set the criteria of believing in Jesus as path to salvation. Some people never hear about Jesus, or never hear enough about him. Some people are just incapable of really believing due to their cast of mind. If their only crime is to not believe in Jesus; they could be perfectly moral otherwise. I'm sorry, but it seems cruel to damn people over that matter. You can dismiss it as God working in mysterious ways, but I can't. I cannot accept it.

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Ragtime
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23 Nov 2011, 1:36 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Wouldn't you call giving up Heaven for Hell by mere choice foolish? That's self-evident foolishness. Again, the truth I expressed is in a demonstrated principle, not a subjective opinion.

You understand the infinite God completely, don't you? You have determined that God could not possibly successfully explain Himself if confronted with such accusations. Your finite mind has determined this in the absolute, yes? If the absolute is not deemed necessary for you to know, I understand that. After all, who among us knows, or can know, the absolute -- in this life, anyway? But the stakes are high. That is my point. To dismiss God as being evil based on anything less than a full-hearted, lifelong search for truth seems a disservice to yourself, when the stakes are so high.

If God is evil, there is no objection I would have to where you would choose to spend eternity. After all, who wants to live with an evil being, forever? (Not that you've claimed Satan isn't evil.) But going to Hell on a possible "Oops! I thought God was evil but I guess He wasn't after all" is kind of a waste.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 23 Nov 2011, 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

shrox
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23 Nov 2011, 1:38 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

I had an issue with your term "omnibenevolent" yesterday, but I didn't say so. The term may be inaccurate, depending on the exact meaning you're giving it. "All-loving", I buy -- and the meaning I ascribe to that term is multi-faceted: He is all-loving, but that does not mean that every single thing He does -- even when viewed out of its particular context -- looks loving. Take His genocide in the Old Testament, for example. (Perhaps, then, you would withdraw your claim -- if indeed I am reading the claim right -- that the Bible represents God as "omnibenevolent", as in doing good to all creatures, both in terms of "the greater good", AND all "lessor good" acts.) The characterization, really, is inadequate for any god to deal with Earth -- with its Nazis and its saints both receiving benevolence.

I think there is a viewpoint where it will all make sense. I wish I could be at that viewpoint now.

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