Free-will and Atheism

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This is also a blatant lie. The entire reason I joined this discussion was because you quite literally made the inference that atheism is fundamentally immoral and that religion is needed to create a moral framework. Your view is clearly "Religion=Moral, Non-religion=Immoral"

Yes, but you are not a deity, you are a "Fuleri"...

(I get the spelling joke, I think.)

One can be moral and not know Jesus, but one would have no standard other than one's own, and we are just animals.

Damn, I've just edited that earlier post for clarity. Oh well.
I'm always amused when people don't realise my name is a joke. The spelling is to make it more subtle.
As for not being a deity - prove it!

OK, who's underwear am I wearing?

"Knowing Jesus" has not stopped millions of people from acting in ways that most consider "immoral". Religion is not necessary for a person to be moral. Based on human history it might even be the opposite; since "knowing Jesus" does not really dissuade people from being naughty, the whole premise of spiritual accountability is ultimately futile and pointless. It seems the people working hardest at preventing equality are those of religious persuasion, worldwide

You're just wrong on so many levels, like keeping me online while I should be working, or making my dog wait for me to take her out to go to pee! Or something whiny like that...

What? If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, at least explain why

Yours.
Or possibly mine, since as a deity all things are within my remit, but that might be misinterpreted.

I go commando...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_commando

Hades, Tartarus, Gehanna, etc. are all later interpretations. From my understanding being separated or I guess you can say shunned is a lot like it would be in life. When everyone turns away from you, it's another kind of torment. But in this case I think it's much simpler than that. It's so simple people think it's complicated. It's ultimately a personal choice, if we do indeed have free will, to face our creator as it were. No one but yourself can make that decision.

I honestly don't care what you believe (in). My argument stems from the lack of understanding most atheist types have pertaining to the type of morality and ethics they subscribe to. There's no concrete rule book so to speak. I see Secular Humanism as a flawed concept as it has no absolute ethic. I think religion has some flaws as well, but I don't reject the philosophy. There are millions of function god loving people on earth who raise healthy families and are productive citizens. People who take religion literally don't get it either.

You "don't care" yet you are still willing to assert your morals are superior to mine. This is perhaps one of the most ignorant statements I have read recently. "I don't care what you believe, but I argue that you don't understand what your morals are because you have no concrete rule book". You have got to be kidding me. I hope you realize how hypocritical these types of statements make you religious people look. You have such arrogant certainty about everything. I have doubt. But I am principled and ethical. I never trust people who claim to have all the answers. And I sure as hell am not going to base my life on one book. One book is actually a fairly poor framework to develop morals from, especially considering its antiquity. Many books, experiences and observations have shaped my morals. Just like everybody else. Even you. The Bible is not really the framework that most people use for their morals, at least not by itself. One day you might understand, or not. So long as people like you don't affect my life, I could care less what you do.

I also suggest you analyze the "morality" of the Bible. Lets take the story of Lot and his daughters as a case study. One could probably glean a better moral message than the Bible from Mad Magazine

Unless we're talking about the"Jefferson Bible"



As there are also millions of people on Earth who don't care about god and go about their lives in a productive and ethical manner. Either way, that is irrelevant, since your assertion is that atheists have no moral framework to go by, and thus are fundamentally immoral due to their apparent "flexibility". Yet you still haven't met my challenge to demonstrate how religion as a framework has in any way made the human race more "moral", or prove that atheists are less moral than religious people like yourself. You can keep repeating yourself in different ways or you can answer the question... Until then, you're just blowing smoke

Last edited by Vigilans on 23 Feb 2012, 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

If cw10 won't answer this question, it is open to anyone else..

My own answer to that question would be that religion as a *sole* framework rarely exists in reasonable people. Most people are reasonable, religious or not and despite what some will say, do not really base all of their views on one book. Truly, that would be absolute madness, when you think about it.

Some people are also extremists of different blends. Sometimes they are religious extremists, other times political. In either case blind ignorance prevails over intellect and horrible things can be done in the name of this or that.

Ultimately, religion is not necessary to provide any sort of cornerstone for morality. That does not mean it doesn't or cannot provide one, but to imply that it is something needed to live normally and morally in the human condition is simply wrong. Especially when many of the "morals" it promotes are of extremely questionable... moral value.

I don't remember ever citing the bible as the soul source of ethics, I talk about religion in general, but since you can't keep my story straight why am I still talking to you?

You keep asserting I'm christian by doing this, yet you claim that you're not. This is both inaccurate and disingenuous. I've explained my position many times, but you refuse to read it as I write it and substitute your own misinformed interpretation of it. This is why I keep insisting you have trouble parsing English.

Where do Christian ethics come from? God? Where do any religious ethics come from? The works of religious literature. Either that or they're just personal ethics with a pointless supernatural bogeyman element.



This is bull. Your position to begin with is as follows:



This is a pretty clear indication you consider those who don't believe in religious "accountability" (as you later elaborated) believe in "nothing" and are thus somehow more fallible. Did you forget you posted this? You cannot claim that in the context of this thread that is not what you were saying. I don't care if you're a Christian, a Zoroastrian, or a Satanist



No, you keep acting this way because you have no actual arguments, so throwing insults around is your way of avoiding answering any of the questions or challenges I have presented to you. Clearly the only person wasting their time here is me, since you apparently do not have the capacity to engage in an intellectual discussion without resorting to weak logical fallacies, insults, and evasive tactics.