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funeralxempire
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24 Jan 2024, 3:26 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
To paraphrase Emma Goldman, I don't want any part of your revolution if it's going to make intruding into the romantic lives of children a policy.
You literally quoted an anarchist. You know that?
Even Anarchists can speak the truth.


Sure they can speak the truth but I ain't buying for any anarchist theories if their goal is to abolish the state before a socialist revolution is even complete.


Her impressions and predictions about Lenin's totalitarian s**thole seem pretty on the money.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Yugoslav1945
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24 Jan 2024, 3:31 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
To paraphrase Emma Goldman, I don't want any part of your revolution if it's going to make intruding into the romantic lives of children a policy.
You literally quoted an anarchist. You know that?
Even Anarchists can speak the truth.


Sure they can speak the truth but I ain't buying for any anarchist theories if their goal is to abolish the state before a socialist revolution is even complete.


Her impressions and predictions about Lenin's totalitarian s**thole seem pretty on the money.


I can still easily debunk any anarchist. Friedrich Engels wrote his essay called "On Authority" in 1872 in which he criticized the anarchists for trying to abolish the state too early as well as saying that a socialist revolution is the most authoritarian thing you could think of.

Link ---> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

This single paragraph is enough to make an anarchist feel rather shamed.

Quote:
Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?

- Friedrich Engels


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- Josip Broz Tito (Ljubljana, 1948)


Fnord
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24 Jan 2024, 3:31 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
So you consider any form of human protection regarding consent to sex to be a form of some government feudalism?!  I think you are lost
I claimed no such thing, and you know it. Personal attacks are not welcome on this website.
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
I want to establish MAROF as a means of making it secure, free, and fair for all and that no one can violate the system and no one can corrupt it. Loneliness would drop drastically, the workers would be happy, they would no longer worry about how much money to pay to satisfy their other comrades. Why is this so hard for liberals and right-wingers to understand?!
Would those people forced into relationships they do not want under your system also be happy?

Why is it so difficult for people to understand that relationships cannot be forced or coerced, and that sooner or later, the unwanted relationship will end and at least one of the people would be more lonely than before.

Besides, if you are going to call your plan "MAROF", then you should consider your country's copyright laws.

Quote:
MAROF winery has put the north-eastern Slovenian region of Goričko on the map of wine excellence following a century-long standstill. It is a story of family, legacy and love for the nature.
-- Source:  Marof Winery 



belijojo
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24 Jan 2024, 3:31 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
So you consider any form of human protection regarding consent to sex to be a form of some government feudalism?! I think you are lost. I want to establish MAROF as a means of making it secure, free, and fair for all and that no one can violate the system and no one can corrupt it. Loneliness would drop drastically, the workers would be happy, they would no longer worry about how much money to pay to satisfy their other comrades. Why is this so hard for liberals and right-wingers to understand?!

If the attacks from the right-wing or liberal perspectives are considered as directions for improving the system, these criticisms should be adopted. After all, they are commenting on the feasibility and necessity of the system. As for the attacks on the term "communism," they can be ignored; when it appears as a term, it is nothing at all.


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funeralxempire
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24 Jan 2024, 3:31 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
There are many variants of authoritarian socialism that differ from the original theories regarding a socialist society. You have many figures who developed their own thoughts on how to achieve socialism and move to communism.
Who says we want to move to Communism?  Who cares for a form of Socialism that dictates severe penalties for what two (or more) consenting people do in private?

Sure, if an unwanted pregnancy occurs, the father should pay his fair share for birthing and raising the child; and if a sexually transmitted disease is involved, both parties should pay for treatment.

But imposing prison time on minors for a little paradise by the dashboard light is sick and perverse in its own right.


I don't want be the grandfather of a child born from my poor daughter who was raped by a gang of mentally ill neer-do-wells. I'd rather pursue for abortion.


How is this scenario relevant to the initial discussion of consensual sex acts?

Forget moving the goalposts, you're knocking them over, burying them and pretending like the goal never existed.

Criminalizing all sex acts within a given group won't do anything about people who were already willing to engage in coersive sex acts. If anything it would lead to a situation like exists where less proof is needed to prove adultery than SA, meaning people who are SA'd get threatened with being revealed and punished as adulterers.

You've literally just made it easier for the gang of neer-do-wells to engage in the acts you claim to want to reduce.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Yugoslav1945
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24 Jan 2024, 3:33 am

Fnord wrote:
Besides, if you are going to call your plan "MAROF", then you should consider your country's copyright laws.

Quote:
MAROF winery has put the north-eastern Slovenian region of Goričko on the map of wine excellence following a century-long standstill. It is a story of family, legacy and love for the nature.
-- Source:  Marof Winery 


Easy solution. Just threaten the company to change its name to something else. Can't copyright strike us if their name doesn't match ours.


_________________
"In a socialist society such phenomena must and will disappear. In the old Yugoslavia national oppression by the great-Serb capitalist clique meant strengthening the economic exploitation of the oppressed peoples. This is the inevitable fate of all who suffer from national oppression."

- Josip Broz Tito (Ljubljana, 1948)


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24 Jan 2024, 3:34 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Besides, if you are going to call your plan "MAROF", then you should consider your country's copyright laws.

Quote:
MAROF winery has put the north-eastern Slovenian region of Goričko on the map of wine excellence following a century-long standstill. It is a story of family, legacy and love for the nature.
-- Source:  Marof Winery 


Easy solution. Just threaten the company to change its name to something else. Can't copyright strike us if their name doesn't match ours.

？


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funeralxempire
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24 Jan 2024, 3:34 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
I can still easily debunk any anarchist. Friedrich Engels wrote his essay called "On Authority" in 1872 in which he criticized the anarchists for trying to abolish the state too early as well as saying that a socialist revolution is the most authoritarian thing you could think of.

Link ---> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

This single paragraph is enough to make an anarchist feel rather shamed.

Quote:
Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?

- Friedrich Engels


I'm immune to your attempts to treat Engels as an authority or his quotes as authoritative, especially when they're completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

I can debunk anyone from x ideology because of y idol isn't exactly a solid argument, no matter who you insert for the variables.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Yugoslav1945
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24 Jan 2024, 3:35 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Criminalizing all sex acts within a given group won't do anything about people who were already willing to engage in coersive sex acts. If anything it would lead to a situation like exists where less proof is needed to prove adultery than SA, meaning people who are SA'd get threatened with being revealed and punished as adulterers.

You've literally just made it easier for the gang of neer-do-wells to engage in the acts you claim to want to reduce.


Wrong. Everyone who was involved will be question for the government will be omnipotent and justice will still be brought. That's why we need surveillance to make it easier to track down any neer-do-well who tries to form some loophole around our system.


_________________
"In a socialist society such phenomena must and will disappear. In the old Yugoslavia national oppression by the great-Serb capitalist clique meant strengthening the economic exploitation of the oppressed peoples. This is the inevitable fate of all who suffer from national oppression."

- Josip Broz Tito (Ljubljana, 1948)


funeralxempire
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24 Jan 2024, 3:35 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Besides, if you are going to call your plan "MAROF", then you should consider your country's copyright laws.

Quote:
MAROF winery has put the north-eastern Slovenian region of Goričko on the map of wine excellence following a century-long standstill. It is a story of family, legacy and love for the nature.
-- Source:  Marof Winery 


Easy solution. Just threaten the company to change its name to something else. Can't copyright strike us if their name doesn't match ours.


But, it's their name, they had it first.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Yugoslav1945
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24 Jan 2024, 3:36 am

Fnord wrote:
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
I want to establish MAROF as a means of making it secure, free, and fair for all and that no one can violate the system and no one can corrupt it. Loneliness would drop drastically, the workers would be happy, they would no longer worry about how much money to pay to satisfy their other comrades. Why is this so hard for liberals and right-wingers to understand?!
Would those people forced into relationships they do not want under your system also be happy?

Why is it so difficult for people to understand that relationships cannot be forced or coerced, and that sooner or later, the unwanted relationship will end and at least one of the people would be more lonely than before.


Not making a system to force people to be together. I'm making a system to OFFER them opportunity. Everyone will be assigned in the database and loneliness will be much lower than under a capitalist system.


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"In a socialist society such phenomena must and will disappear. In the old Yugoslavia national oppression by the great-Serb capitalist clique meant strengthening the economic exploitation of the oppressed peoples. This is the inevitable fate of all who suffer from national oppression."

- Josip Broz Tito (Ljubljana, 1948)


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24 Jan 2024, 3:38 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
I don't want be the grandfather of a child born from my poor daughter who was raped by a gang of mentally ill neer-do-wells. I'd rather pursue for abortion.
Your hypothetical daughter is more likely to be raped by a first-degree relative than by a "raped by a gang of mentally ill neer-do-wells".
Still gonna go for abortion. I ain't letting the rapist get away.
Murdering a child for the alleged "crimes" of its parents is pure EVIL.

Is THIS part of the "Socialist Revolution" you propose?


But you just said that my hypothetical child would be raped by incest.
I said no such thing, and you know it.  I said, "Your hypothetical daughter is more likely to be raped by a first-degree relative than by a 'raped by a gang of mentally ill neer-do-wells'."

"More likely" is not the same as "Would".


Yugoslav1945 wrote:
How is abortion at an early stage of pregnancy now considered "murder"?
It has been that way for millenia.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
What, you want to have a baby who is unhealthy and has complications because her mother was underaged and wasn't fully developed?!
Children of first-degree incest are not always unhealthy.

You, being only 18, have not likely made enough of a study of the sciences (including the social sciences) to know what you are talking about.



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24 Jan 2024, 3:38 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Besides, if you are going to call your plan "MAROF", then you should consider your country's copyright laws.

Quote:
MAROF winery has put the north-eastern Slovenian region of Goričko on the map of wine excellence following a century-long standstill. It is a story of family, legacy and love for the nature.
-- Source:  Marof Winery 


Easy solution. Just threaten the company to change its name to something else. Can't copyright strike us if their name doesn't match ours.


But, it's their name, they had it first.


Also, there was a person named Tristan Marof so there is no possible way that the company can copyright strike us if there are other things named after "MAROF" as well. So much for the "Marof winery".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trist%C3%A1n_Marof


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"In a socialist society such phenomena must and will disappear. In the old Yugoslavia national oppression by the great-Serb capitalist clique meant strengthening the economic exploitation of the oppressed peoples. This is the inevitable fate of all who suffer from national oppression."

- Josip Broz Tito (Ljubljana, 1948)


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24 Jan 2024, 3:39 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Criminalizing all sex acts within a given group won't do anything about people who were already willing to engage in coersive sex acts. If anything it would lead to a situation like exists where less proof is needed to prove adultery than SA, meaning people who are SA'd get threatened with being revealed and punished as adulterers.

You've literally just made it easier for the gang of neer-do-wells to engage in the acts you claim to want to reduce.


Wrong. Everyone who was involved will be question for the government will be omnipotent and justice will still be brought. That's why we need surveillance to make it easier to track down any neer-do-well who tries to form some loophole around our system.


You not liking a criticism to your position doesn't make it wrong.

If people in a given demographic who report being raped are opening themselves up to persecution for fornication (or whatever the charge is called) that will have a chilling effect on victims of SA within that demographic reporting.

Responding with oh, well we'll use magic police that can figure out everything doesn't address that point but at least provides some comfort because it makes it clear that you'll never be in a position to draft public policy.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
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24 Jan 2024, 3:41 am

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Besides, if you are going to call your plan "MAROF", then you should consider your country's copyright laws.

Quote:
MAROF winery has put the north-eastern Slovenian region of Goričko on the map of wine excellence following a century-long standstill. It is a story of family, legacy and love for the nature.
-- Source:  Marof Winery 


Easy solution. Just threaten the company to change its name to something else. Can't copyright strike us if their name doesn't match ours.


But, it's their name, they had it first.


Also, there was a person named Tristan Marof so there is no possible way that the company can copyright strike us if there are other things named after "MAROF" as well. So much for the "Marof winery".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trist%C3%A1n_Marof


I fail to see how that addresses what I said, which is that your government wouldn't be entitled to force the winery to change their name just because they wanted to use it for a department.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Yugoslav1945
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24 Jan 2024, 3:41 am

Fnord wrote:
Yugoslav1945 wrote:
How is abortion at an early stage of pregnancy now considered "murder"?
It has been that way for millenia.

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
What, you want to have a baby who is unhealthy and has complications because her mother was underaged and wasn't fully developed?!
Children of first-degree incest are not always unhealthy.

You, being only 18, have not likely made enough of a study of the sciences (including the social sciences) to know what you are talking about.


I didn't graduate. Also, give me one valid reason on why abortion is murder.


_________________
"In a socialist society such phenomena must and will disappear. In the old Yugoslavia national oppression by the great-Serb capitalist clique meant strengthening the economic exploitation of the oppressed peoples. This is the inevitable fate of all who suffer from national oppression."

- Josip Broz Tito (Ljubljana, 1948)