To religious people. Will atheists go to hell or heaven?

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Odin
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03 Jun 2008, 6:11 pm

ThatRedHairedGrrl wrote:

On whether the mystical aspects of religion see God as personal or not, my understanding has been that they did both, and that there was no contradiction. All mystics recognize that God is beyond description, but they also don't hesitate to use personal terms - Father, Mother, Beloved, words that express intimate relationship in human terms that people can understand. In reality, they're all symbolic, and have their limits. Describe God as 'he' (or, indeed, as 'she') and you immediately get tied up with human gender politics; describe God as a Mother or Father and you have people's own family baggage to deal with. This is why it's so vitally important that people are free to experience the Divine in their own way. The symbols that speak to one person may not speak to someone else.

As for good and evil, again, the mystical view seems to be that there is only one point of origin, only one all-embracing Source of everything that exists, so there's no other place anything could come from. To say it's 'beyond' our ideas of good and evil is one way of putting it; to say it 'includes' them is another. slowmutant's idea is similiar, I think, to some of the ideas found in the Jewish mystical system of Kabbalah, where all the aspects of God have their negative as well as positive side.

I have no problem using personifications of the divine in an allegorical or poetic sense, but the problem is that most people don't use such personifications in an allegorical context, they turn them into a anthropomorphic figure that has a human-like personality that performs miracles and smites the wicked.

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slowmutant
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03 Jun 2008, 6:14 pm

Should the wicked not be smited?

Should miracles not be performed?

Kalister1
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03 Jun 2008, 6:15 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Should the wicked not be smited?

Should miracles not be performed?

Oh! Don't smite me master!

Miracle me! Yes! Im going to be saved!

(I'm discussing this in a religious aspect, in which these things are entirely believed in. This is a serious discussion, and part of the "Politics,Philosophy,Religious" aspect of this forum. All you godless heathens need to just stay out of this, I'm going to be saved.)

Odin
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03 Jun 2008, 6:19 pm

twoshots wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Can't I? I think I just did.
Sorry, neither you nor I make the rules as to whom can use what referrences.

No, but I do. An argument from scripture is a classic begging the question fallacy and/or an irresolvable regression.

Epic Fail.

It's obvious Rag-the-Parrot couldn't see a fallacy even if it b*tch-slapped him in the face. His inability to understand logic is the main cause of him being a fundie nut, it seems. He is exactly the kind people person Karl Popper talked about when he said "You cannot have a rational discussion with a man who prefers shooting you to being convinced by you." You can't reason with people who refuse to be reasonable, and using LOGIC is part of a reasonable argument.

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Odin
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03 Jun 2008, 6:25 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Should the wicked not be smited?

Should miracles not be performed?

Yes, but that doesn't mean they actually are.

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makuranososhi
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03 Jun 2008, 6:29 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Should the wicked not be smited?

Should miracles not be performed?

Karma tends to take care of such things.

Miracles? Such as?

M.

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Kalister1
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03 Jun 2008, 6:29 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Should the wicked not be smited?

Should miracles not be performed?

Karma tends to take care of such things.

Miracles? Such as?

M.

Such as him saving me

NobelCynic
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03 Jun 2008, 6:40 pm

Ragtime wrote:

greenblue wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

I care about real life.
And in real life, I'm going to Heaven, and, it seems, you are not.

And that makes you happy or sad?

Overall, happy.

Does it really?

That is not a very powerful testimony for the transformative power of the Blood of Christ. It would seem that there are still some dark patches in your soul that need to be illuminated.

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makuranososhi
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03 Jun 2008, 7:10 pm

Kalister1 wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Should the wicked not be smited?

Should miracles not be performed?

Karma tends to take care of such things.

Miracles? Such as?

M.

Such as him saving me

*trying to stifle bemusement*

M.

Kalister1
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03 Jun 2008, 9:45 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

Kalister1 wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Should the wicked not be smited?

Should miracles not be performed?

Karma tends to take care of such things.

Miracles? Such as?

M.

Such as him saving me

*trying to stifle bemusement*

M.

Sigh , I guess its not happening. Well, both of us are going to hell now

You scared off our saviors.

The_Chosen_One
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03 Jun 2008, 11:26 pm

Ragtime all through this argument I have read pages and pages of you quoting scripture and drivel for your arguments, and not once have you been able to come up with a logical rebuttal to anything that we have said. Kalister1, twoshots, Odin and I have repeatedly asked you for an OPINION based on logic, not some BS parable that can't even be authenticated let alone proven. As one of them said on about page 10, if you cannot argue without resorting to such tactics, you have no place in this debate. Oh, and for the sake of discussion, will you refrain from referring to anyone who disagrees with your hyperbole as liars and hellbound? Sound more like the rantings of a 5 year old schoolboy who's parents won't buy him some lollies because he's been naughty. How would you like it if we did the same to you, or quoted passages from the Bhagavad Gita or Koran? So stop carrying on like a annoying little child and start debating properly. If not, we may have to resort to sending you to Coventry.

Oh, and one last thing, you said that you KNOW you are going to heaven because you have earned your place there (read the smegging transcripts, boy-o). Well you also referring to prideful people as being sinners, and your PRIDEFUL statement of where you think you are going also makes YOU a SINNER. Pride goeth before a fall, and it's a f*****g long way down.

Over to you Mr Spock.

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Last edited by The_Chosen_One on 03 Jun 2008, 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

greenblue
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03 Jun 2008, 11:46 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Pure logic is impotent to solve any real-world problem or question.

Well, I would say that pure philosophy does not solve any real world problem or question, however, Im not that certain if its always the case.

Quote:

I correct my sentence to say that pure reason and enough data will lead anyone to the truth of God.

I could say that ontological and subjective reasoning can lead you to a perception of the truth of God, whatever that would be.

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Kalister1
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03 Jun 2008, 11:58 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:

:twitches:

I think I just went mad after a while, and just finally gave up. Now I just play along with their arrogant promises to save us. In the end, your arguments aren't going to change their minds, so you might as well just have some fun instead of pulling out your hair.

The_Chosen_One
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04 Jun 2008, 12:03 am

Oh, I know I'm never going to convince him of anything. The argument does make good bait though, especially when we have him hook, line and sinker. Besides, someone needs to prune the poppies......

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Speckles
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04 Jun 2008, 12:06 am

I think this comic is a pretty good summary of the thread

The_Chosen_One
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04 Jun 2008, 12:10 am

Don't think it worked. Try again

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