Criteria for evidence of a God.

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They could but without religious freedom as an excuse they wouldn't be able to plead "My religion says I'm allowed to even though it's illegal" and have charges dropped.

Fraya, I'll add one other point. Part of the reason that I want to debate this with you is not even from disagreement. What your stating about religion and how removal of it would be great - I firmly saw the world exactly in that light for at least 2 or 3 years of my life. On that level I can empathize. On the other hand, I also know that enough new information came in that forced me to change my mind in much the same way that I arrived at my prior thesis - that religion had to go.

Nice points Tech. I actually feel that religion becoming more rational is a great thing (as well as atheists perhaps learning not to laugh at theists quite so much) and the two ideologies working together is for the best but as long as religion exists there will always be people using it as an excuse because it's the biggest and most effective umbrella covering their actions. Without it those people would perhaps find other means but they would do so at greater personal risk.

As for those who would go on rampages without the fear of hell to keep them in line.. would that really be such a bad thing? For a few generations perhaps it would be problematic but as the sociopaths take themselves out of the gene pool instead of flourishing under religion it would overall improve things.

It's like how they put warning labels on everything and religion tells you how to behave even if you don't understand it. What has that accomplished? The majority of people not thinking for themselves or even having a reason to learn if they are always told beforehand what the consequences of their stupid ideas will be.

If sociopaths continue to dominate the species and perhaps one day the human race is made up of them solely what good did religion really do?

I know how you feel. I can see the good that religion does and the short term harm removing it would do but I feel in the long term it will be necessary for our continued progress and it should be done sooner rather than later. The longer we wait the more damage it will cause when it eventually happens and perhaps we should just grit our teeth and get it over with (like ripping off a bandaide).

A lack of higher rules can be taken as a problem.

Well, how can something be "acceptable" without reference to something above the current actors. Rape, arguably has been acceptable in some societies.


Well, the major point I am bringing up is that people don't think of laws in this manner at all. Laws are related to justice, if they were not, then any current law could not be questioned or rebuked in a fit manner.


And what makes the system terrible is arguably that there is no limit to what can be questioned. The human race really does not change that much, and certainly does not seem to change a lot faster than religion. And the very basis of a society is really not it's flexibility, but rather it's constancy, and the notion that the laws that are will continue to be the laws.

I simply don't see the real difference between secular cults and religions, even if you say that there is a legal distinction, particularly given that legal distinctions aren't absolute.

Or a solution to worse problems.




That's those societies problems. If something is acceptable nearly universally even if it contradicts today's morality how is it wrong?



And where does the sense of justice come from? Morality. If people don't think of it in that way that's most of the problem then isn't it?



It's also societal in that religions are perceived as special when they are not. If that perception is stripped away secular cults will have a more difficult time convincing people of the veracity of their dogma.

They're actually what's been called in the past 'alpha's. As far as humanity goes, in the mating game, the cream falls to the bottom and the trash usually rises to the top. There are good alphas, plenty of them in athletics and in the military but those who are good have a distinct disadvantage against those with no conscience.



Society does need to wake up - as technology improves along with the distinct destructive effects that one person can have if they do choose, or even a wrong turn in genetic modification if we go that way - if we don't get it together we're going to annihilate ourselves as a race. I'd like to think that will calm people down and force them to focus for their own good but its hard to say.



It provides bonding glue and puts a fire in the gut of those who see injustice and wish to act on it. That's not to say it can't be there without religion but inspiration can be difficult if people start naval gazing and thinking everything in life is all for naught anyway (again, atheism would have to pitch relativity).




And here's where we go back out of the social utilitarian angle and have to go back to the first bit - we're really that cock-sure that there is nothing outside of our current sphere of knowledge? That sure that the contingencies of how this earth works, along with the absurdities, that everything we see as holding patterns of fate or life lessons at odd times are purely coincidence? When I said I took a turn over the evidence I saw at a time when I was thinking we were animals and no more no less - it wasn't shock and awe over sheerly the fact that Christians understood the world far better than atheists on the secular and material matters or that Christianity and other religions held some utilitarian social value; if that were the case I would be an atheist myself but just promoting the uses of a religion - that I'm not. While I can speak of it in those terms I still find it just as or even a bit more likely that there is a higher power; don't know if he/she/it is glued to the dogmas that we shell out every day in our churches, synagogues, mosques, or temples, but there is a lot in the syntax that to me at least speaks of a higher intelligence of sorts.

This is why we can't just say "Common, if we let our illusions down and just suck it up and act like adults we can all put our childish fantasies down, put the teddy bear and blanky away, admit there's no higher power, and things will sort themselves out from there" - you have to face the fact that a great many people see just as hard, just as cold, just as concrete of a world as an astute atheist would, people who understand that they're pretty much on their own in this life, see all the injustice, vitriol, and everything else that the human race and natural law even offer - and still see a context for a higher power, some may still even see a higher power who loves each and every one of us but who without a doubt wants to test our metal while we're here. Religion can't just be eradicated because there's no basis to eradicate from. Evolution doesn't cut it either - it may be wholly true, it may only be part of the picture (that we still don't know) but it speaks of the chemical, biological, and the systemic apparatus by which life on this earth came about - it speaks nothing for or against the metaphysical or spiritual unless one truly has the concept that man's perception at any point is the measure of all things (if I can't see it, touch it, smell it, taste it, and it can't be picked up as electomagnetism or radiation at this point in time then it cannot exist). That's a leap and a big one at that, *just* as much as it is to take the evidence from the world around you, from the course of history, or even from one's own heart that there is a God.

So, at the end of the day between atheism and theism - its still a stalemate. Religion as well can't be called an evolving more articulate excuse for fantasy, no more than atheism can be spoken of as an ever-evolving and an ever-more eloquent system of apology for solipsism. Its not obstinance on either side but an authentic difference of opinion that will most likely go on for all of time.

math

Awesomelyglorious:

Something I wanted to tell you, I don't know if you've noticed this yourself or not but I've seen a lot of it. There's something much different and much bigger than apologism that's been grabbing at the theological community lately. Whether its reading Michael Novak, hearing various Jewish or even Catholic/Christian philosophers talk, the best way I'd explain it is it seems like what they keep describing and the framework their giving it is going back more and more toward natural theism - Aristotle's God, the Pagan's God, pretty much the idea of all beauty, all grace, all goodness, all intelligence, emanating as aspects of one central source.

I can't say if that's exactly how they're putting it but its all taking a more and more gnostic tone; not quite Kaballah yet but similar overtones. I was just having a talk with one of my friends who dropped by and we were having a long conversation about the isht he's going through, the isht everyone else is going through, how it seems incorrectable, unsolveable, like all of us are restricted and seemingly dominated by the absurdities emanating from both other people and myself.

Fraya:

That's another point, the absolute ret*d absurdity of life; how everything breaks, when people try to exert their freewill to correct problems in their life and it ultimately just makes things crash and burn in ways that are beyond their control, the way that we have such weird and broken limitations; it seems like its almost articulated. While that on its own doesn't seem like proof of God that's one of a lot of aspects that seem to stack on each other and bear a strange suggestiveness. For instance, one guy friend of mine has a lot going for himself, has nothing particularly wrong, but he meets girl after girl after girl who almost seem to just want a fling - date him for a minute and go back to their respective guy who they talked so ill of. Another friend, stuck in a cycle with someone he's not even interested in. That girl's friend who's been in Rover calenders, practically a model; married a guy at her parent's pushing, she divorced him for a guy who she was really in love with - all to find out in the end that he just wanted her as a f' buddy. This world is filled with so many people trying to do so many things, with the best of intent, trying to make the most of life and yet its like everything they try to take action on deceives them with uncanny accuracy. Millions of people who are in their 40's and 50's with a string of failed marriages behind them living a life I couldn't even imagine with 3 or 4 kids they barely get to see, many others who have crashed and burned; that's also suggestive in its own way, not to say that it proves there is a God but it almost gives you a sense that something is trying to tell us that we're all powerless and that we don't call the shots here - that this often 70 ir 80 year ride is more like a rollercoaster that we're strapped into and the best we can do is thrash around, make a wheel lose traction, and just make it shake violently before it goes back on path. The reason we end up wanting to fight that roller coaster to begin with is because, often enough, the ride is designed for - 3 or 4 failed marriages, kids you don't get to see, and a life nowhere close to what we inherently want; so there's ample reason to try and ample reason to have reality prove that if you try you'll similarly be denied for your efforts.

Of course....none of this directly *proves* anything on its own but its still uncanny just how little control each individual person really has.

I've always said that if God exists he's an incredibly sadistic bastard who likes to f**k with us for his own amusement.

I used to think that I had a small amount of free will/control over my life, ( which I kept hoping to increase by avoiding gluten, or "processing" with CBT, etc etc etc ) , and that some other ( lucky/privileged or "better" ) people had more than me, or less, ( poor things ... ).

Now I realise we all of us have none, and it is such a relief. I don't need to envy anyone else their impressive self-control. I can't look down on others who "seem" to have less either! They have as much control over their lives as I have over mine, zero.

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Last edited by ouinon on 15 Dec 2008, 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

so do we have that criteria nailed down yet?

/not expecting it ever

Your ideas about free will and other philosophical questions are directly influenced by your gluten intake? Hmmmm.

I have more control over my life than you think.

I have free will. I make decisions for myself. And I also have the freedom to make mistakes.

Don't project your ideas onto me, ouinon. I do not appreciate that.

I'm just saying what I believe. You do that all the time, whenever you express your beliefs. Everybody does.
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Free will is an illusion but one so convincing it becomes irrelevant whether it's real or not as we are incapable of dispelling the illusion.

Then how can you be so sure it's an illusion?

yeah dude, your a dick at many times when you birch about Jesus