03 May 2009, 1:45 pm
03 May 2009, 1:50 pm
BECAUSE I SAID SO! 
03 May 2009, 1:55 pm
techstepgenr8tion
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03 May 2009, 1:58 pm
03 May 2009, 2:26 pm
techstepgenr8tion
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03 May 2009, 2:49 pm
03 May 2009, 3:16 pm
03 May 2009, 4:04 pm
Haliphron wrote:
So a Deity cannot choose to do something that's logically impossible, or it simply cannot violate logic even if it wishes to do so.
Thus logic transcends the divine.
If this an issue of definitons, then God is omnipotent but is NOT truly all-powerful. By all-powerful I mean the ability to do Anything, even violate logic.
Thus logic transcends the divine.
If this an issue of definitons, then God is omnipotent but is NOT truly all-powerful. By all-powerful I mean the ability to do Anything, even violate logic.
I don't see how "logic transcending the divine" has meaning. If logic did not, then you would attack the divine as nonsensical. In any case, there are 3 ontological positions that I can see being taken:
1) Logic is transcendent, and the divine is subject
2) Logic is an expression of the nature of the divine, and given that our minds were formed by the divine, we cannot comprehend a reality that contradicts this logic
3) Logic is merely the application of meaning, and thus has no transcendence or ontological status, but rather is short-hand.
Haliphron, would it matter whether a deity fits your definition?? I mean, if it did, you'd attack it for being absurd, if it didn't you'd attack it for being weak, and the definition itself is unnecessary.
03 May 2009, 5:16 pm
03 May 2009, 5:56 pm
JetLag wrote:
I believe that God has the power not only to create that which is possible to create but also the power to "will" anything into existence that he wishes. I think that God's very nature, the component parts of His character, His attributes such as omnipotence and omniscience, prevent Him from doing or "willing" certain things.
I don't think that God could "will" himself into extinction, for example. I don't believe that God would, or maybe even could, "will" a square circle into existence because the definitions of square and circle would lose their boundaries in the process. And I don't think that God probably would or could "will" a stone so large that he could not lift it, since that would be a mutual exclusivity.
If God could do anything and everything he wanted or willed to do, including everything that either excludes or precludes the other, that would contradict the very character of God. I don't think it's in God's nature, His DNA, to express or overlook one attribute at the expense of another one.
I don't think that God could "will" himself into extinction, for example. I don't believe that God would, or maybe even could, "will" a square circle into existence because the definitions of square and circle would lose their boundaries in the process. And I don't think that God probably would or could "will" a stone so large that he could not lift it, since that would be a mutual exclusivity.
If God could do anything and everything he wanted or willed to do, including everything that either excludes or precludes the other, that would contradict the very character of God. I don't think it's in God's nature, His DNA, to express or overlook one attribute at the expense of another one.
God has DNA????
03 May 2009, 6:05 pm
He doesn't have genes, but memes. 
03 May 2009, 7:25 pm
Haliphron wrote:
God has DNA????
I think that was meant to be an analogy.
techstepgenr8tion
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03 May 2009, 8:00 pm
I think the idea is he has 'jeans' not 'genes'
03 May 2009, 8:03 pm
Jeans soaked in Gerin oil. 
04 May 2009, 2:00 pm
Ancalagon wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
God has DNA????
I think that was meant to be an analogy.
Ancalagon is right. I should have written something like "Divine Nature Applied" after DNA. Sorry about the confusion. I think it would have been less confusing if I had said that God is not only omnipotent but also "all powerful in will"; therefore, God can do anything and can will everything, but He cannot not "will" anything at the expense of one of his attributes.
04 May 2009, 3:06 pm
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
So a Deity cannot choose to do something that's logically impossible, or it simply cannot violate logic even if it wishes to do so.
Thus logic transcends the divine.
If this an issue of definitons, then God is omnipotent but is NOT truly all-powerful. By all-powerful I mean the ability to do Anything, even violate logic.
Thus logic transcends the divine.
If this an issue of definitons, then God is omnipotent but is NOT truly all-powerful. By all-powerful I mean the ability to do Anything, even violate logic.
I don't see how "logic transcending the divine" has meaning. If logic did not, then you would attack the divine as nonsensical. In any case, there are 3 ontological positions that I can see being taken:
1) Logic is transcendent, and the divine is subject
2) Logic is an expression of the nature of the divine, and given that our minds were formed by the divine, we cannot comprehend a reality that contradicts this logic
3) Logic is merely the application of meaning, and thus has no transcendence or ontological status, but rather is short-hand.
Haliphron, would it matter whether a deity fits your definition?? I mean, if it did, you'd attack it for being absurd, if it didn't you'd attack it for being weak, and the definition itself is unnecessary.
I'll go with 1). So this is the bottom line: The existence of an *omnipotent* God(subject to the principles of Logic) is possible but does "he" actually exist? if it cannot be proven theoretically and/or demostrated objectively or even subjectively(through direct contact from a Higher Power) then how does that debunk/invalidate the atheist position???
