Conservatives and Homosexuality

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Hey, anything I can do to help. From what we have discussed elsewhere, you have a hard time dealing with the invisible. You can accept certain invisible things such as emotions, abstraction, morality, and so on because you have personal experience with those things. I can't get you to say you know where morality comes from, for instance, so I have to conclude that you don't. All you know is that it's unavoidable. You can perceive it, but not in a physical way. You can see how other people react to it. So you know it exists.

God is the same way. He can leave clues to His existence, but He can't get in your face and say "Boo!" He COULD if He wanted to. But like I've also said before, people didn't believe even when He did make His presence known in big, miraculous ways. God is the authority of creation, not some "smoky ghost magician" you can call on to do silly parlor tricks. The creation exists FOR the Creator, not the other way around.

The only way you can begin exploring whether there really is a God or not (much less Jesus and His teachings) is if you can conquer your fear of the invisible. Those things are clues, evidence that God uses to reveal Himself to all people. If God left solid, undeniable proof, it still wouldn't matter because we'd just find ways to refute it. What is a Heavenly Father to do? Take away our free will? No, because then we'd all just be mindless robots, and that's not the reason we were made. The unfortunate consequence of free will is a rebellious nature. We weren't created that way (rebellious, that is), but we did inherit it. Maybe one day we'll find the sin gene, and that will, for all time, prove the existence of God.

You might also consider that you don't understand all of creation yourself. Forget about all that invisible stuff I've been talking about. No human being can possibly understand all of the physical universe, not even you. Yet you are eager to accept it. If you don't understand all of the workings of the universe and accept it, then perhaps you can admit that invisible things exist--NOT MYSTERIES, we experience them and know them, we just can't see them. And if that is true, then MAYBE there's much more to the world worth believing than those things alone.

Aaah free will. You seem to revel in all the warts and bumps of badly thought out paper mache constructions of reality. I wonder what invisibles you think I fear. Ghosts, souls, demons, vampires,and Easter bunnies no longer threaten me in my adult life.I never claimed to understand the entire universe or even all those billions of alien creatures inhabiting my gut and trying to either aid my digestion or kill me. But their activity, I am reasonably sure, are not directed by divine intervention. There is enough downright stupidity and silliness and frightful negativity in religious activity to give me strong motivation to look elsewhere for wisdom.

As to which invisibles you fear: You claim not to fear those things you listed. Fair enough. I'm not afraid of them either. I've come to recognize that certain things are fairy tales and certain things are fact. Some things I recognize COULD harm me, while other things are benevolent or non-existent. I also recognize that there are many things I don't know and all I can do is rest on my faith.

So as you plainly say, you do not fear invisible things.

I think what you fear is that the "invisible" exists at all. To put it another way, children are often afraid of the unknown. Monsters under the bed. The closet door. As long as the closet door is closed, all that is left when we close our eyes is our world as we remember it. But an open door is a portal to the deep, dark, unknown. We are not afraid of the good things that MIGHT exist. We are afraid of those things, no matter how unlikely, we CAN'T prove false. There MIGHT also be monsters in the closet. We have no way of knowing for sure.

What we CAN do is open the door, turn on the light, and explore the contents of that closet. Closets don't exist without a purpose, that is, to store things (this is by Design, but that's beside the point). By exploring the contents of a closet, a child can see there's nothing to be afraid of and that the closet is simply an annex or tangent of his external reality.

Morals, emotions, ideas, concepts, and other invisible things have to exist. Where are they? Science can't prove/disprove them, only observe their effects. They are, so to speak, in the closet beyond our purely physical existence. Perhaps they reside in Hammerspace, because just like cartoon characters are prone to finding blunt objects in impossible places, we are able to pull out these invisible things when it suits us. We are "hurt" when we perceive an insult, for example. "Insults" and "hurt" are not real things in the same sense as objective material objects, but they ARE real things regardless. That there is an invisible dimension to human existence is no great mystery, nor is it a refutation of your beloved science. It doesn't "prove" the existence of God, and any evidence it provides (if any) in favor of God is at the discretion of you and your conscience (also invisible, but your words indicate that you have a mechanism for discerning truth and proper conduct).

I've argued this point at length, and I fail to see how a reasonable person can disregard this simple fact. All that remains is that you fear that there is an "invisible" at all. That would mean that you'd have a choice of either exploring that tangent to reality, adding it's contents to what you already know, or simply accepting it on faith. It's convenient for you to deny it's existence, otherwise you'd be compelled to face other facets of reality that have a real possibility of changing your view of your world as you know it and are comfortable with it. All you can say is that "you don't know" where these things come from, but you can't admit that either because it opens the door on other things that you don't know--the possibility that their IS a real possibility that God exists. This isn't something that a person like you can take lightly. It's not that you lack the ability to open those doors. You lack the will. I think, just my opinion here, that it's this fear of acknowledging the invisible known (not unknown, they aren't mysteries as you've adeptly put forth) that presses so much weight upon your will to open those doors.

To put it in Christian terms, that fear is the result of a conviction. To deny a fact is to take action. It is something you actively do, not an act of passivity. I think it's your fear. I'm sure it could be anything, so if I'm wrong, it's no great tragedy. But again, that's up to you to decide.

What's fascinating to me is that you admit to not understanding the entire universe, yet you believe it. You contradict yourself when you previously said that understanding is the key. Your refute the idea of God based on your requisite for understanding, something for which Christians have no need, though we are free to seek it if we wish (I like understanding my beliefs where I can). So why not also refute your own ideas of the universe in favor of ideas that make better sense? Whether you understand the universe or not, as you already know, understanding doesn't preclude the existence of reality. Likewise, understanding or lack thereof doesn't preclude the existence of invisible things.

To fear things you cannot perceive is, as far as I can make out, a rather bad case of neurosis. It means you must have a permanent twist in your mind full f fear. Sorry to disappoint you but I only fear actually perceived menaces or potential menaces from actually perceived possibilities.

To fear things you cannot perceive, yes. But you DO perceive it. And it is a menace to your worldview. For many of us, a perceived attack on our worldview is more nightmarish than any "real" physical threat.

That's why so many Christians get bent out of shape when you poke holes in their beliefs. They believe naively that what they believe (as being new to the faith) is the ONLY way to believe when the truth is they just don't understand what it really means to be a Christian. Cornering them in things they don't understand is going to create a lot of cognitive dissonance and a LOT of irrational behavior. You won't find this in a Christian who already knows what he believes and has lived a life of self-examination.

Fear is something we don't concern ourselves with aside from the usual knee-jerk reactions that we hold in common with basic animal instinct. A clear-thinking Christian doesn't have to fear the unknown or any physical threats because the unknown things we believe in are known to us and are greater by far than the physical world.

Anyway, if it isn't fear, it definitely IS something. You are extremely averse to "religious activity." I have to wonder why. Most of us who believe the Bible and try in earnest to interpret it for ourselves see a whole different side of God than religious leaders of the past may have had us believe. One of the tenets of my denomination is a belief in the "priesthood of believers." While we do have our own leaders who interpret scripture for us, we are actively encouraged to examine the message for ourselves and share what we know. Far too many are content to just occupy a pew on Sunday morning and have no more reading or discernment of scripture than what we get in a Sunday morning sermon. We are all called to be priests. How can you fill a priestly capacity if you don't understand what it is you preach?

Pure laziness. That's what it is. We take too many things for granted.

The real point is that Christ alone is necessary for salvation. That's our "fire insurance." Most people tend to be content with that and think "to Hell with everyone else." If I have an all-access pass through life and death, I say take it out for a test drive. These people would not enjoy having me over as a guest. JW will likely never come knocking on my door again. I don't stand for religious "nonsense" any more than I stand for secular "nonsense," and you'll note that I have no problems correcting even other Christians when they make mistakes pertaining to the Bible. I think you have seen too many Christians acting in unexamined ways and, yes, that has often erupted in unspeakable horrors. If you were to spend any good length time at all in the right kind of church and studied with someone confident in their faith, you might find that the idea of Jesus and God is really not so unpalatable and that Christians, being imperfect beings as much as the rest of us, are certainly fallible and vulnerable. Bring questions, but bring an open mind. I don't mean interrupt a sermon--I just mean take the time with someone appropriately knowledgeable in the faith that can help you understand it. I, for one, am ALWAYS happy to clear things up if I can.

I'm terribly sorry but your arrogant strident self confidence merely makes you ridiculous. You don't grasp how fragile any so-called sure knowledge is.

I wasn't trying to be arrogant or strident, but I do possess certainty about my faith.

You're sliding quickly back into old habits, Sand. You can't get a reaction out of me that way. And instead of providing a REAL response, you're attempting distraction tactics. Just make your point! I'm not your enemy. Say what's on your mind. Hurling insults (calling me ridiculous?) only reinforces my belief that you have no idea how to give an answer. If I don't know something, I'll simply admit it. You should try it sometime. You'll feel better.

ANYWAY...

You say I "don't grasp how fragile any... sure knowledge is." OK. Indulge me. How fragile is it?

You still view this as some dumb attempt to mentally overpower you. It's not. I am trying to show you the nature of how we view reality and how unstable that is. Your rock solid Biblical knowledge is made of mist and miasma and marshmallows and it seems I cannot help you. Sorry. I tried.

Oh come on, Sand! You can do better than that! You said it. You made the claim. I don't grasp how fragile any sure knowledge is. Your words. How fragile is it?

To suggest that you tried is an outright lie. I asked a question. I'll ask it again: How fragile is sure knowledge?

If you were in error, or if you have already thought it through and changed your position, simply say so. "Sorry. I tried" just doesn't cut it.

you're knowledge isnt 'sure'. to be so it would have to be able to be proven and verified. since know one can, your apparant knowledge isnt a good basis for judgement and decision making.

THANK you for actually bothering to answer. I'm not being facetious, I really do mean that. You only show that you have intellectual honesty when you at least try.

Irish: Let me ask you this, just to be clear on what we're talking about. Sand just said that "sure knowledge is fragile." That is worded in a VERY general and broad way. Are you saying that all knowledge that can be proven and verified is "sure"? Matters of faith cannot be proven the same way other things can, so for the moment, that isn't the issue. What I want to know is: Can ANY knowledge at all be "sure"?

I told you several times. The answer is no. But you won't listen.

There is an old story about a violinist who practiced a great deal and finally he kept playing the same note continuously for a week. It was driving his wife nuts and so she finally broke down and asked him what he possibly could be doing. "Well," he said, "you may have noticed that most violinists, when they are playing, move their fingers around continuously as if they are searching for the right note. I have found it!"

Science is continuously throwing out its old views of reality and discovering newer and more useful and more valid ones. Religion, two thousand years ago, found this one quite weird and rather nutty solution to everything and keeps harping on it.

I see. So you accept that perhaps you are mistaken on your view of God, that the likelihood is greater than you previously imagined and that at least investigating the case for Jesus Christ is worthwhile? Are you perhaps mistaken in your exclusive reliance on scientific discovery to provide a consistent world view? I've already shown that certain things, like emotions, evil, morality, and the like can be validly said to exist, yet science cannot point to their existence in any direct way. By taking all levels of our world, the visible and the invisible alike, we can make better sense of our world than we can relying on science alone.

Never mind that. Answer if you will, but there is actually something more important to me at the moment.

Do answer this one: Do you exist? Please be plain. That's a "yes" or "no" question.

Humans are perfect, not God. Humans do exactly what we were made to do, but God can't even have us do what he thought we should do. I would never worship a god that repents for our creation. That is to deny what and who we are, and I know my place in the world. It's a place that can't be dictated to me by a god that wants me to do the impossible. I will never get why people TRY to indulge in temperance for a god who will kill them as soon as they get through the pearly gate.

In my experience, they don't.

I'm in the UK. Maybe it's different in other places.

No, you do not see and I do not accept and I don't know what the hell strategies your are trying to pull off and I am not interested in trying to get tangled up in further nonsense discussions which seems to be the direction you prefer. You have not shown certain things and have not demonstrated that science is totally puzzled over emotions and your continual reference to visibles and invisibles is absolute horse manure so if you refuse to talk sensibly I am no longer interested.

The request for a yes or no answer on existence is an open declaration of dishonesty since the word is a huge semantic and philosophical trap, something that has been debated for centuries by philosophers who have come up with no clear conclusion since the word itself has no single definition that will permit a simple clear answer. It's an obvious indication that this has been a mere game of chasing fugitive vague verbalisms which is the delight of theologians who would be devastated by a pragmatic approach to the gigantic jumbled edifice of supernatural nonsense.