Does the government own your vagina?

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AceOfSpades
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12 Apr 2011, 4:30 pm

skafather84 wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

And I consider it worthy of being considered a person since it is developing into a full grown baby. To me life starts when sperm becomes fertilized in the ovum. Sperm amounts to nothing until it fertilizes, then it will amount to being a full grown baby.

So why doesn't a hair follicle amount to being a full grown baby? A zygote has little that a hair follicle doesn't.

"Amount to being" means developing into. Fertilized sperm develops into a full grown baby.

not most of them.

They do if the process goes uninterrupted by miscarriage or abortion.

No....a fertilized egg can be flushed away very easily so long as it doesn't attach to the wall of the uterus. Fertilized eggs are discarded all the time by women.

It amounts to being a baby assuming the process is uninterrupted. Eggs being flushed out from periods, miscarriages, and abortion all count as interruptions.

skafather84
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12 Apr 2011, 4:32 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

And I'm against cloning.

And I hope you understand the difference between therapeutic cloning and reproductive cloning, and DNA cloning and intend cloning to actually mean "reproductive cloning". Because I can understand that...except in case of animals/livestock (where it may still have a value).

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AceOfSpades
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12 Apr 2011, 4:37 pm

skafather84 wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

And I'm against cloning.

Therapeutic cloning is cloning stuff like organs right? If so, then no I'm not against that.

BurntOutMom
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12 Apr 2011, 4:38 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

BurntOutMom wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

So why doesn't a hair follicle amount to being a full grown baby? A zygote has little that a hair follicle doesn't.

Except potential to grow into a fetus........................

sorry

It is possible to use any cell for cloning. It may not become a viable human, but it has potential to grow into a fetus.

Point taken

skafather84
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12 Apr 2011, 4:39 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

And I'm against cloning.

Therapeutic cloning is cloning stuff like organs right? If so, then no I'm not against that.

Yeah, it's essentially growing organs in petri dishes or on a live medium like ear lobes on the backs of hairless mice.

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12 Apr 2011, 4:50 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

It amounts to being a baby assuming the process is uninterrupted. Eggs being flushed out from periods, miscarriages, and abortion all count as interruptions.

1. What part of the fetus's being alive, or human, or a person negates a woman's pre-existing autonomy?

2. How can you justify abortion in cases of rape? Why is a fetus's "right" to subsist inside a woman contingent on it being conceived through consensual sex? Why is a woman's right to procure an abortion contingent on her being a victim of rape?

3. Can you concede that there is no actual SUFFERING involved in abortion, as opposed to the misery and death of women and children that accompany women's lack of reproductive control?

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Inuyasha
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12 Apr 2011, 6:01 pm

Bethie wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

It amounts to being a baby assuming the process is uninterrupted. Eggs being flushed out from periods, miscarriages, and abortion all count as interruptions.

1. What part of the fetus's being alive, or human, or a person negates a woman's pre-existing autonomy?

Because if we side with the child's right to life then a woman has to put up with carrying the child for X number of months. If we side with pro-abortion, the child is killed like sometimes quite brutally.

Bethie wrote:

2. How can you justify abortion in cases of rape? Why is a fetus's "right" to subsist inside a woman contingent on it being conceived through consensual sex? Why is a woman's right to procure an abortion contingent on her being a victim of rape?

You have a valid point Bethie.

Bethie wrote:

3. Can you concede that there is no actual SUFFERING involved in abortion, as opposed to the misery and death of women and children that accompany women's lack of reproductive control?

Actually there is suffering in the case of abortion, you have the child whom ends up dead, seriously injured, even permanently maimed. (Believe it or not, there are children that survive abortions despite the abortionists best efforts to kill them) Then you have the woman whom may suffer psychological damage from the abortion, and abortion can prevent her from being able to have children in the future.

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12 Apr 2011, 6:23 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

If we "side with pro-CHOICE" a woman takes a pill and has a heavy period. There is no discernible "child" to even see when the vast majority of abortions take place. You didn't answer as to how the fetus being killed, even in a brutal way, negates women's autonomy.

Inuyasha wrote:

Again, I really don't know what you're talking about, but it isn't abortion. The process the vast majority of the time is quite similar to menstruation.

Which would you wager would put women under more psychological stress:
a medical procedure which ends an unwanted pregnancy,
or realizing you are pregnant, cannot continue the pregnancy, and having no means to ending it without risking your life?

Which would you wager has a higher risk of risking a woman's fertility:
abortions done by a licensed doctor in a clean and regulated environment
or a woman shoving a broken coke bottle through her uterine lining and causing a massive hemorrhage?

Magnus_Rex
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12 Apr 2011, 7:11 pm

No, they don't own it. I don't have a vagina.

Anyway, I'm pro-choice. Why should a woman be forced to give birth if she's not willing to take care of the child? There are enough people in the world already.

AceOfSpades
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12 Apr 2011, 7:21 pm

Bethie wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

It amounts to being a baby assuming the process is uninterrupted. Eggs being flushed out from periods, miscarriages, and abortion all count as interruptions.

1. What part of the fetus's being alive, or human, or a person negates a woman's pre-existing autonomy?

The right to live trumps the right to choose and a fetus meets the biological characteristics of life (before anyone starts comparing the fetus to skin, bacteria, w/e keep in mind I've said a fetus/embryo develops into a full grown baby and none of those do). One exception would be breathing. A fetus doesn't actually breathe through its gills, the oxygen comes through the umbilical cord.

Bethie wrote:

Actually that's true, adoption would be more fitting.

Bethie wrote:

3. Can you concede that there is no actual SUFFERING involved in abortion, as opposed to the misery and death of women and children that accompany women's lack of reproductive control?

I haven't sorted out the brain activity thing since I dunno what frequencies of brain waves manifest at the earliest or what regions of the brain are active, but once again personal responsibility plays a big role in my stance. If you don't wanna experience misery then don't get yourself in that predicament.

JakobVirgil
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12 Apr 2011, 8:43 pm

what is the 'Libertarian' view on abortion?

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Master_Pedant
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12 Apr 2011, 8:45 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

what is the 'Libertarian' view on abortion?

The Right-Libertarian, principled, position on abortion is ... wait for it ... THE STATES SHOULD DECIDE!! !!

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12 Apr 2011, 8:46 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

what is the 'Libertarian' view on abortion?

Libertarians are very pro-choice.

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12 Apr 2011, 8:48 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

what is the 'Libertarian' view on abortion?

The Right-Libertarian, principled, position on abortion is ... wait for it ... THE STATES SHOULD DECIDE!! !!

Must we really start the state's rights debate? Not all Libertarians are Right-Libertarian state's right fanatics.

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AceOfSpades
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12 Apr 2011, 8:56 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

what is the 'Libertarian' view on abortion?

Right Libertarian - Abortion violates the right to life
Left Libertarian - The fetus/embyro is not considered a life, so therefore it is up to the mother

Just my rough guess. I don't really think it's as clearly established as conservative and liberal.

JakobVirgil
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12 Apr 2011, 9:16 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

what is the 'Libertarian' view on abortion?

how do right libertarians propose to enforce their Ideas on abortion without force?
will we just have enough government to stop abortions and no more?

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