Creep Shaming?

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My issue with it is the rather large number of people who seem to believe that that particular negative perception should never be questioned.

I don't think the use of it is to be avoided at all costs or, at least, no more so than any other insult. But I do find the idea that the word "creep" has some sort of special protection because it's based on the speaker's feelings, and the idea that the speaker's motives for using it should never be questioned, a bit ridiculous.

My stance is less "don't say unkind things about others," and more "don't say untrue things about others." As a part of that, I believe that anything anybody says about anyone should be open to question. And that, if the statement should be found to be unwarranted, the speaker should be called on their BS.

You say you don't care if people agree with your assessment of others as creepy. I'm guessing based on that that you'd agree that that term is as open to question as any other. If that is the case, then we don't actually disagree about this.

My issue is with statements like "all that matters in the analysis of creepiness is what i feel" and "The thing is, it doesn't matter if you find it believable, it doesn't matter because it's an expression of how she FEELS" (both taken from this thread).

I take issue with those statements because, given that the creepy label (like others) comes with consequences for the person it is applied to, one should take more into account than just the speaker's feelings before deciding whether or not to believe it.

Yes, certain negative terms definitely carry more weight than others. Creep may not be the only serious one, probably isn't the worst but, given what it implies, it's pretty bad.

And examples of how it sticks, how people want to believe it, are right here in this thread. I tell about a guy not being creepy and people start making stuff up about what he must have done to deserve it.

Everyone, stop using the word creep, it hurts people's feelings and was secretly the reason someone lost his job, and it's probably rarely accurate.

staaaahhhp

Knew that was gonna happen.

I give an example not involving me, and I get s**t for it because I supposedly wasn't close enough to the situation to really see what happened. So I give an example involving me personally, and I get openly mocked.

Nice.

Here's an idea meems, how about you try reading what people are actually saying and responding to that. I know that's more difficult because it involves stopping and thinking rather than just blindly reacting to your own fantasy version of what other people think, so I'll help you out a little; nobody here has said to stop using the word creep, all anyone has said is to think about whether it really applies first.

Sometimes it's used for correct reasons. Sometimes 'prostitute' is used for sex workers, and sometimes it's used to shame non-sex-working women; the fact that it's sometimes used incorrectly is not an argument for dismissing the word altogether.


Oh? Has anyone here said that 'creep' should never be questioned? I personally, actively, defended a male co-worker of mine when his relationship with a colleague went bad and his ADHD was causing him to act in atypical ways that she, and then some of her more direct co-workers, were labeling as 'dangerous.' I didn't just take their word for it; I got his side of the story, and based on that and on my prior knowledge of him, defended him as 'occasionally weird, but not dangerous.' I don't take anyone's gossip about other people without large grains of salt, but that doesn't mean that words that describe people aren't useful whether good or bad.


Yes. Yes, it is... so much so that maybe you should reconsider whether or not anyone here is actually making that argument.


That is true.
^this statement does not contradict what I said above.

IN the case of my co-worker, I did not try to tell anyone that their feelings were invalid, or that they shouldn't be afraid of him, or that they were bad people for feeling the way they did about him; I said, 'I've known him for a long time, and while I've seen some strange and obsessive behavior on his part, including having been the focus of his romantic intent at one time, I never felt threatened by him and I do not fear him.'
The correct response to someone feeling fearful is NOT to tell them that their emotion is incorrect; it's to provide evidence to the contrary.

That isn't what mds_02 et al were saying.

I'm mocking you because you really seem to ardently believe that you, or me, or anyone has some say in a set of standards to be applied to the term "creep". I'm not saying it's only used fairly, I'm saying you can't set standard for what makes other people feel threatened or afraid, it's something that is determined by each individual. With a word like "Creep" no one is ever going to have to satisfy anyone elses' standards for how they're using that word. They don't even have to logically explain why they're using the word.

It might suck and be unfair, but that's how this term is used, even if it's used maliciously. There is no way to police it.

In my "fantasy version of what other people think", I assume that the people who are going to think about whether it really applies first are ALREADY DOING THAT, and there is no forcing anyone to do it, so in my fantasy version of what other people think, there's no point in trying to apply my own personal standards to other peoples' expressions of how they FEEL. Because HOW A PERSON FEELS is never going to be up to me. Or you. Or anyone but the person expressing their feelings, genuine or not.

I've never been called a creep as far as I can remember, but I've definitely had the "What's up with this guy" looks from strangers at various points in my life.

One of the problems is that 'creep' seems more like an accusation to some people than an expression of feeling threatened.

If creep=rapist as it does with some people, you can't accuse somebody of committing such a terrible crime without proof. It doesn't deliver the message across at all.

You're trying to let someone know you feel threatened but a person might not even get that at all from it and even if the person does the person is going to consider it an accusation as well. Most people are either going to take it as an accusation and an expression of feeling threatened or just an accusation and nothing else.

You can feel threatened and nobody can say you don't but how you respond to that feeling is your choice. You can pull out a gun and shoot the person you feel threatened by. You can tell that person how you feel. You can walk away. You can attack the person verbally or physically.

Calling someone a creep falls somewhere between telling that person how you feel and attacking that person verbally. It still inflicts pain and not just to the ego. It is the same as accusing someone of being a serial killer.

The person you call a creep has just as much a right to be offended by that. By telling people that they can't tell you not to use the word creep is the same as someone else you can't tell someone to stop doing something that's making you uncomfortable.

If people can't tell you to stop using the word creep then you can't tell people to stop harrassing other people. They have a right to harrass people because it's an expression of their feelings of lust. You can't tell them they don't feel lust.

Obviously I don't believe that anymore than I believe people can tell people they can't object to the use of a word. People can't go around harrassing others. People can't go around making racial slurs. People can't commit slander. People can object to things that make them uncomfortable. People can object when they feel offended.

I'm not going to go in circles with anyone about this again. What I've said is that you can't decide whether or not someone else uses the word creep or how they're allowed to use it. When you hear someone calling another person creepy, you can decide then how you view the situation and whether or not it was warranted, and if you want, you can even say "Hey, that was uncalled for", but you can't stop that person from using the word creep. Be offended, that's fine, still no control over what others are saying.

And you don't need proof that someone is a creep, you really don't. You DO need some kind of compelling evidence to accuse someone of a rape, but until you're in a court room being prosecuted on charges of creepiness(which I'm pretty certain don't exist, at least in America, where I reside) then no, there is no proof required.

I've been called a creep at least a dozen times. I don't recognize when people are trying to end conversations or when I'm too close to someone while I'm speaking to them, I can't read facial expressions or body language at all, and I end up being called a creep.

Sometimes it's impossible to get any feedback about what was creepy that I did without being even more creepy to that person.

And SOMETIMES people will go into excruciating detail if I ask.

Why not? Society has decided that words that in the past were used freely now require moderation. You can't go around calling Black people [mod. edit: racial slur removed] or Pakistani people [mod. edit: racial slur removed] . At the end of the day, 'Creep' is discriminating.

Discrimination, in labeling theory, takes form as mental categorization of minorities and the use of stereotype. This theory describes difference as deviance from the norm, which results in internal devaluation and social stigma. Both of which heavily affect the victim.

Here is a brilliant lecture relevant to the present topic.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-N9daqANcw[/youtube]

It is a bit long, but she points out differences in the ways that women objectify men versus the ways that men objectify women.

Basically, men are sexy to women in terms of what they can bring to the table in terms of social status, protection and resources.

Men seldom complain about being objectified by women, whereas women are likely to complain about being objectified by men. Men who are not objectified by women are seen as losing out, whereas women who are objectified by men feel threatened.

Although women go to a lot of effort to make themselves sexually attractive to men, the potential risks and costs to women (at least among our distant ancestors) of yielding to the sexual advances of a subpar man were extremely high. For a modern woman, sexual attention from a man whom she feels doesn't measure up still makes her uneasy. But, she won't get any attention at all, even from men she might want, unless she presents herself as a sexually attractive woman.

Modern men have to compete for sexual congress with women who interest them. However, at least among our distant ancestors, a man would lose nothing through having coitus with a sub-par female. Of course, with modern child-support payment systems, a modern man stands to lose a lot by carelessly giving it away. Still, a modern man tends to be delighted if the ladies are objectifying him. Since he has to compete for women, being objectified is a sign of success. Being found sexy by women costs a man nothing, and can pay off for him, as he gets to have his pick of women, rather than the other way around.

So, women do have to go to a lot of trouble to make themselves sexually alluring to men, or they aren't going to hook themselves a high-status man. And, they do have to fend off the subpar men, for which "creep" is a handy synonym.

You can do that if you are Black or Pakistani respectively.

In the States, yeah, I can. I would end up losing friends and making an ass of myself, potentially facing violence or threats as a result of it, but no one can legally force me not to use those words. I don't, but not because I can't. I tend to try to exercise good judgement and so long as I'm not threatening someone, my words are mine alone to censor.

Girlwriteswhat is possibly more difficult for me to watch than some girl eating her own tampon. I don't know, I've never made it through a girlwriteswhat video, and I didn't make it through the tampon video either.