To religious people. Will atheists go to hell or heaven?

Page 14 of 18 [ 275 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next

greenblue
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,896
Location: Home

04 Jun 2008, 12:33 am

Ragtime wrote:
greenblue wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
I care about real life.
And in real life, I'm going to Heaven, and, it seems, you are not.

And that makes you happy or sad?


Overall, happy.

Ok, good, although what I actually meant was if the thought of twoshots not going to heaven made you happy or sad.

Quote:
Also, why would you seek to take away my joy and certainty?
You cannot, but it's a rhetorical question anyway; I know why you'd seek to take it away.

And why is that?
And is not because we want you to suffer, or maybe we do? :twisted: :twisted:

Serouisly, you sounded so sure about you going in heaven, but oh well.

About taking away your joy and certainty, well not really, it is good to have such certainty actually, at least when you die you have that joy about something you expect later, however, the problem comes with what other beliefs come from, what you consider evil, who do you consider is going to hell and who goes to heaven, a little problem there a part from the joy.

I don't seem to be capable of having such certainty myself, I wonder how people can have it without resorting to empirical questions or doubt.

Quote:
And I'm saying nothing that isn't in the Bible, which is why I provide the evidence, the Bible verses,
consistently in my posts.

Well, I think you know that most here must not see the Bible as real evidence.


_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?


The_Chosen_One
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,357
Location: Looking down on humanity

04 Jun 2008, 12:47 am

Ragtime: Lest not you judge, for you may be judged yourself said a well known scholar that you know. Or in other words, Stop making insinuations about other people when you're far from perfect yourself. Ego may not be a dirty word, but in your case you may well have forgotten the meaning.

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way
I can't wait to look in the mirror, cause I get better looking each day........


_________________
Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!

Karma decides what must happen, and that includes everyone.


MR_BOGAN
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2008
Age: 124
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,479
Location: The great trailer park in the sky!

04 Jun 2008, 2:41 am

Kalister1 wrote:
The_Chosen_One wrote:
Tell him to expect Raggy sometime.


You got it!


Ok now I'm starting to fear Hell! 8O

Fire and brimstone is one thing, but I thought at the very least I'd be able to get away from religious preaching. :cry:


_________________
Dirty Dancing (1987) - Trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU8CmMJf8QA


The_Chosen_One
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,357
Location: Looking down on humanity

04 Jun 2008, 2:45 am

Sorry about that, but his seat is reserved on Pan-Am flight 666. Seat 23F Economy class. Smoking.


_________________
Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!

Karma decides what must happen, and that includes everyone.


jamesohgoodie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 565
Location: Chicago IL

04 Jun 2008, 2:52 am

the Christian debates whether or not the Atheist will go to Heaven or Hell when they die.

the Atheist finds it rather irrelevant, because he's more worried about the fact that he'll be dead.


_________________
OH GOODIE! - Three Chords in Three Panels
ohgoodie.net

NEVER NORMAL - Saving the World Between Sketchbooks
nevernormal.net


The_Chosen_One
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,357
Location: Looking down on humanity

04 Jun 2008, 2:53 am

Boom Boom! Here endeth the lesson.


_________________
Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!

Karma decides what must happen, and that includes everyone.


skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,848
Location: New Orleans, LA

04 Jun 2008, 3:03 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Sorry about that, but his seat is reserved on Pan-Am flight 666. Seat 23F Economy class. Smoking.



there's a smoking section somewhere?!?!??!?


/stupid california smoking laws



The_Chosen_One
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,357
Location: Looking down on humanity

04 Jun 2008, 3:15 am

I doubt you'd want to be on that flight, skafather. They're all hellbound in a handbasket.


_________________
Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!

Karma decides what must happen, and that includes everyone.


skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,848
Location: New Orleans, LA

04 Jun 2008, 11:02 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:
I doubt you'd want to be on that flight, skafather. They're all hellbound in a handbasket.



oh...figures...it's a fictional flight.



twoshots
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,731
Location: Boötes void

04 Jun 2008, 2:44 pm

Well, anyway, back on topic, I'm reading about this on wikipedia...

We need a general theology expert on this. What happens to non-Christians when they die is widely contended between sects, and in fact my wikipedia browsings seem to yield no coherent picture of what happens when people die at all.

The general picture does not look favorable. Catholic Limbo is a state which is either minimum misery or maximum natural happiness (not a bad afterlife), but it is reserved generally for unbaptized people who died in infancy (ands hence committed no sins of their own). What happens to those in Limbo on Judgment Day doesn't seem to be agreed upon either.

A passage I find interesting is that of Eastern Orthodoxy, where wikipedia says, "Similarly, although Orthodoxy teaches that salvation is obtained only through Christ and his Church, the fate of those outside the Church at the Last Judgment is left to the mercy of God and is not declared." This certainly seems to make the fate of non-Christians ambiguous.

There is however a doctrine called "Universal Reconciliation" whereby all people are eventually saved. This doesn't seem to be a terribly common belief, but in regards to Catholicism and Orthodox:

Quote:
As the Catholic Church teaches that Christians must believe in the existence of hell, it has been the standard belief of Catholics that certain people go to hell. For Roman Catholicism, the doctrine of universal reconciliation is considered heterodox, albeit they do believe in purgatory, and it is accepted by some of the clergy as compatible with current church teaching.[18][19]

Russian Orthodox Bishop Hilarion of Vienna, in April 9, 2008, in his presentation at the First World Apostolic Congress of Divine Mercy at the Vatican, argued that God's mercy is so great that He does not condemn sinners to everlasting punishment. The Orthodox understanding of hell, Bishop Hilarion said, corresponds roughly to the Catholic notion of purgatory

So the idea that everyone will eventually be saved seems to be gaining some regard.

Going back to Catholicism momentarily, wikipedia also gives:
Quote:
At the same time, however, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that through the graces Jesus won for humanity by sacrificing himself on the cross, salvation is possible even for those outside the visible boundaries of the Church. Christians and even non-Christians, if in life they respond positively to the grace and truth that God reveals to them through the mercy of Christ may be saved. This may include awareness of an obligation to become part of the Catholic Church. In such cases, "they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."[11] Catholics believe that people, even those who are not explicitly Christian, have the moral law written in their hearts, according to Jeremiah 31:33 (prophecy of new covenant): "I will write my law on their hearts." St. Justin wrote that those who have not accepted Christ but follow the moral law of their hearts (logos) follow God, because it is God who has written the moral law in each person's heart. Though he may not explicitly recognize it, he has the spirit of Christ. According to Fr. William Most's article for EWTN (the primary Catholic television network), those who have the spirit of Christ belong to the body of Christ. He writes, "Those who follow the Spirit of Christ, the Logos who writes the law on their hearts, are Christians, are members of Christ, are members of His Church. They may lack indeed external adherence; they may never have heard of the Church. But yet, in the substantial sense, without formal adherence, they do belong to Christ, to His Church."

Catholic doctrine states that a person is not guilty of disbelief in Christ, and could be saved, if it is due to invincible ignorance, or ignorance which could not be disposed of, even if the person were to try to educate himself or herself about the nature of God. Such ignorance may be a result of a non-Catholic or non-Christian upbringing, as well as a result of never having heard of Jesus. However, those who are saved even though they have not faith in Jesus are saved not because of their disbelief, but in spite of it, because of God's mercy.

This seems fairly inclusive as to who gets saved.

So there you have it: it depends on who you ask. I have not represented the Protestant opinion because we have plenty of them around here...


_________________
* here for the nachos.


skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,848
Location: New Orleans, LA

04 Jun 2008, 3:27 pm

Some people are bad and they don't give a damn
what they do or who they hurt.
They go through their lives and don't apologize
for the s**t that they've disturbed.
But they don't bother me at all cuz I know quite well
When their lives are over and they've done what they've done
They're the people that are going to hell

Some beat their wives or pull out a knife
and stab a person or two or three
with no repercussions and no one here can touch them
and they get away scott free
But that's not the case you see and I'm glad to tell
When their lives are over and they've done what they've done
They're the people that are going to hell

They will spend eternity cursing all they've done
faced with karma consequences and nowhere left to run
They will be in agony until the end of time
Cuz they were such ass holes while alive

So try and be nice and to do what's right cuz there will come a day
When you're faced with your maker and no one here can save you
No matter what they say.
And be glad that you were good cuz some don't do so well and
when their lives are over and they've done what they've done
They're the people that are going to hell



tharn
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 168
Location: Iowa

04 Jun 2008, 3:50 pm

My impression of Heaven and Hell - the version that makes the most sense to me personally - is a peculiar one. And I don't expect it to match up with any particular authority, or to match up with anyone else's notions:

Sins are not bad just because of an arbitary authority, but because they are actions that confuse and inevitably corrupt the soul. We may use authority in the education of children, but the more mature we get, the more we see first-hand the damage of sinful actions. An act like murder not only causes suffering in the victim and his family, but increasing pain in the perpetrator. The pursuit of wants beyond one's needs creates a growing sense of emptiness. These are particularly Buddhist notions.

People who are wrapped up in sins become deluded in excuses, and their minds become sick, and they become increasingly insistant that their actions are the right ones, that they are just victims of others. Even if you are unrepentant in life, imagine an eternity alone with your sins. These are typically people who would not accept forgiveness if it were offered, and I think a good God would extend forgiveness to everyone.

So I guess I see Hell as being just like Earth - people pursuing their empty desires and hurting one another for all eternity - except all the decent people have wandered off. The worst curse for nasty people is to have other nasty people as company, and the best blessing for good people is to have other good people as company. Personally, I think a good God would prefer to have everyone be decent folk and hang out together... but God expects us to make our own choices.

Just an idea.


_________________
Sainte atha ma u Hrair, kan zyhlante hray u vahra ma hyaones.
My heart has joined the Thousand, for my friend stopped running today.


Nambo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,882
Location: Prussia

04 Jun 2008, 5:49 pm

For dust you are, and to dust you will return,

So no Hell for you then, at least thats what the Bible says.



The_Chosen_One
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,357
Location: Looking down on humanity

04 Jun 2008, 5:54 pm

Actually, when you really come down to it, heaven and hell are just states of mind. Heaven being elation and joy; while hell could be considered depression and angst. No party rules other either except we ourselves, which means the true key to heaven is to live a happy life doing good for people.


_________________
Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!

Karma decides what must happen, and that includes everyone.


greenblue
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,896
Location: Home

04 Jun 2008, 7:40 pm

Nambo wrote:
For dust you are, and to dust you will return,

So no Hell for you then, at least thats what the Bible says.

Well, the "bad" guys will return to dust, (are we from dust scientifically speaking btw?) but they would have to suffer first, that is what hell is for, depending on the belief of course, some think hell is eternal torture, others just temporary and then, the liber..... I mean the bad guys, cease to exist.


_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?


greenblue
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,896
Location: Home

04 Jun 2008, 7:54 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Actually, when you really come down to it, heaven and hell are just states of mind. Heaven being elation and joy; while hell could be considered depression and angst. No party rules other either except we ourselves, which means the true key to heaven is to live a happy life doing good for people.

The idea of heaven is an utopia, a socialist utpoia it seems, by the way, a beautiful and happy place, eternal paradise, the idea is very appealing, so who wouldn't like to be living in a society like that? The problem lies on the many different beliefs on how to get there and who are suppose to enter and who's not.

Hell is seen in history as the punishment for bad behaviour in order to control society, so yes, pretty much it looks to instigate fear to people if they didn't obey. The Bible mentions the Lake of fire refering it to Hell, which I can say they would have being inspired by vulcanic eruptions of lava to come up with the idea of Hell.


_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?