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US Healthcare reform

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ed
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14 Aug 2009, 12:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
Ruveyn, since you consider all taxes stolen money then you consider the agreement of all citizens to pay taxes to support the government they have as a null agreement and the government, under your concept has no right to collect them. That looks to me that you qualify as a screwball.


I consider the money collected for police, law courts and the armed forces not stolen. It is a shame to lay on a tax to these ends but that seems to be the only way to fund them. Anything that can be supplied in small lots to individuals by private individuals or firms should be so supplied. That is how we get our food, for example. We go to privately owned stores which get their goods through privately owned distribution centers, which get their material from privately owned farms or other food sources. This is how we eat.

If our food can be privately produced and distributed, why not our medical care? Food is even more vital to our lives than medical care. We rely on private sources for that, why not medical care?

ruveyn


Our private food system is working fine (thanks in part to government subsidies.)

Our private medical care system is not. It is broken, and needs to be fixed. It is unwilling to reform itself, so the government must step in directly to stop the abuses. The health insurance industry is perhaps the biggest villain in this.



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14 Aug 2009, 1:06 pm

I chuckle at the notion that offering a public plan is in any way taking away freedoms. It is providing the freedom of available healthcare to those who do not currently have that particular freedom. Besides, no one who opposes the bill seems to have a problem with the government taking away personal freedoms and privacy as it did in the patriot act. They don't complain about freedoms lost for the sake of national defense, such as soldiers being sent on extended tours of duty for the second or third time. It is time for us to redirect our focus to domestic policy. Our neglect in this area has left many citizens to suffer. Has anyone seen the make shift hospital in CA this week? Thousands showed up to see a doctor for free in a scene much like that of a third world nation. It is clear that our treatment of the poor and yes, I'll say it, black people have not improved since Katrina. We all watched in horror at how so many underpriveleged were left to die because of some irrational fear of riots and looting. We now hold the same type of irrational fear about helping the sick now.



ruveyn
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14 Aug 2009, 1:32 pm

Sand wrote:

But aviation, atomic energy, space, satellites, rocketry and huge amounts of basic medical research are all basically incubated by government support. That is why you are such a puzzle to me since you are pretty totally technologically oriented.


They are so incubated now. Prior to WW2 this was not the case. Most scientific research was done by universities, non-profit corporations and for profit corporations and some foundations. The transistor was invented at Bell Labs a privately owned and funded think tank. We didn't need the government for that. Fission was developed at first privately by universities (Enrico Fermi, before WW2 in Italy) and later by the government as part of a weapon development program.

Our major technologies, electric power generation, electric lighting, radio was developed privately. The A.C. power generation and delivery system was developed by George Westinghouse (and his company) after he hired Nicola Tesla, who formerly worked for Edison.

In transportation the air brake, block signaling, the electric and steam locomotive were privately developed. The government had no hand in it. The first working heavier than air human piloted aircraft were produced by private inventors. The government got involved only to the extent that aircraft were used for military recon and combat.

In Britain, Whipple developed the jet engine using private funds, prior to WW2.

Most of everything we use is privately produced and distributed in the United States.


Government involvement is a mixed curse and blessing, but history has shown government involvement in peaceful technologies to be unnecessary.

Weapons are a different story.

ruveyn



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14 Aug 2009, 2:05 pm

ed wrote:
Our private food system is working fine (thanks in part to government subsidies.)

Our private medical care system is not. It is broken, and needs to be fixed. It is unwilling to reform itself, so the government must step in directly to stop the abuses. The health insurance industry is perhaps the biggest villain in this.

Similar to our "socialised" healthcare system, the NHS. That's not been working for some time, and few politicians will admit that, as to do so is seen as political suicide. We pour enormous sums of money into the organisation, and as ruveyn pointed out, governments rarely do a good job of running anything. Most people with enough money and sense use a private hospital, over here. A few years back I was advised by my GP to have something potentially serious checked out. He reckoned on it being weeks before I saw an NHS consultant, so I asked him to arrange it privately -- next day I was at the Bupa hospital. There the consultant pointed out that previous treatment I'd recieved via the NHS was bordering on the criminally negligent. I could recount a whole bunch of other tales of how bad the system is, but I digress.

Anyway, I think you've got the same problem as us in so far as political dogma is the biggest obstacle to providing what's both morally and financially acceptable.



ed
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14 Aug 2009, 2:38 pm

ruveyn, you forgot to answer my question

ed wrote:
How is the government doing as your insurance company? Is its performance satisfactory to you?



If this were one of those TV lawyer shows, I'd be saying "Please, Your Honor, make him answer the question." :lol:



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14 Aug 2009, 2:51 pm

ed wrote:
ruveyn, you forgot to answer my question

ed wrote:
How is the government doing as your insurance company? Is its performance satisfactory to you?



If this were one of those TV lawyer shows, I'd be saying "Please, Your Honor, make him answer the question." :lol:


So far, so good. Just about as good as my prior private insurer Aetna. But I have no complications so just about any insurance is good enough.

I also have supplementary insurance to cover items not covered by part B of Medicare. That is private insurance.

So far no problems. No waits.

ruveyn



ed
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14 Aug 2009, 3:08 pm

ruveyn wrote:
ed wrote:
ruveyn, you forgot to answer my question

ed wrote:
How is the government doing as your insurance company? Is its performance satisfactory to you?



If this were one of those TV lawyer shows, I'd be saying "Please, Your Honor, make him answer the question." :lol:


So far, so good. Just about as good as my prior private insurer Aetna. But I have no complications so just about any insurance is good enough.

I also have supplementary insurance to cover items not covered by part B of Medicare. That is private insurance.

So far no problems. No waits.

ruveyn


That's good. I like my VA medical care, too :)

Now, since they're doing such a good job, let's let uninsured people enroll in it as well.



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15 Aug 2009, 12:04 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

But aviation, atomic energy, space, satellites, rocketry and huge amounts of basic medical research are all basically incubated by government support. That is why you are such a puzzle to me since you are pretty totally technologically oriented.


They are so incubated now. Prior to WW2 this was not the case. Most scientific research was done by universities, non-profit corporations and for profit corporations and some foundations. The transistor was invented at Bell Labs a privately owned and funded think tank. We didn't need the government for that. Fission was developed at first privately by universities (Enrico Fermi, before WW2 in Italy) and later by the government as part of a weapon development program.

Our major technologies, electric power generation, electric lighting, radio was developed privately. The A.C. power generation and delivery system was developed by George Westinghouse (and his company) after he hired Nicola Tesla, who formerly worked for Edison.

In transportation the air brake, block signaling, the electric and steam locomotive were privately developed. The government had no hand in it. The first working heavier than air human piloted aircraft were produced by private inventors. The government got involved only to the extent that aircraft were used for military recon and combat.

In Britain, Whipple developed the jet engine using private funds, prior to WW2.

Most of everything we use is privately produced and distributed in the United States.


Government involvement is a mixed curse and blessing, but history has shown government involvement in peaceful technologies to be unnecessary.

Weapons are a different story.

ruveyn


All sorts of wild ideas occur to private people but only if they are properly financed and developed do they become useful to the community. Your dismissal of "weapons development" includes huge amounts of federal financing with associated technology that moved into civilian areas once they were proved viable. Without the Manhattan Project atomic energy would go nowhere and the weapons development of missiles and satellites has resulted in huge civilian applications well after tremendous amounts of federal funding made them commercially viable. Aviation after WWI was going nowhere until the federal government financed airmail. Please, no more of your reactionary baloney.



Last edited by Sand on 15 Aug 2009, 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sand
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15 Aug 2009, 12:06 am

This column http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/15/opini ... ef=opinion is a sensible reply to those afraid of federal health care.



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15 Aug 2009, 8:41 am

ed wrote:
Are you with Ruveyn? By that I mean "Do you think that poor people should be allowed to die rather than save them with government (tax) money?"


You are asking a slanted question. I do not think the poor should be allowed to die or not have access to decent health care. HOWEVER, I KNOW THAT GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT BE FUNDING IT OR RUNNING IT.

The problem is that the proponents for universal health care only see government as the way to do it, ignoring the long and ugly history of government-run enterprises in recent and long history.

These people need to think outside the box. A government mandate to produce a solution and let the private enterprise machine find the best way to make it happen. Government should facilitate, not dominate.



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15 Aug 2009, 9:13 am

Sand wrote:
This column http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/15/opini ... ef=opinion is a sensible reply to those afraid of federal health care.


The government can barely deliver parcels and packages. That is why we have FedEx, UPS and DHC to do it. On time and reliably delivered. That is why first class mail is loosing revenue to e-mail. Thank the deity of your choice that the U.S. government does not run e-mail.

ruveyn



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15 Aug 2009, 9:54 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
This column http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/15/opini ... ef=opinion is a sensible reply to those afraid of federal health care.


The government can barely deliver parcels and packages. That is why we have FedEx, UPS and DHC to do it. On time and reliably delivered. That is why first class mail is loosing revenue to e-mail. Thank the deity of your choice that the U.S. government does not run e-mail.

ruveyn


And there were rabbis in New Jersey recently caught dealing illegally in body parts. Should I therefore be convinced all rabbis are crooks?



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15 Aug 2009, 10:47 am

Sand wrote:

And there were rabbis in New Jersey recently caught dealing illegally in body parts. Should I therefore be convinced all rabbis are crooks?


Only members of the Kosher Nostra.

Keep in mind that governments are not subject to the daily discipline of market competition. They have less incentive to perform well than do private firms and individuals. If the U.S. Postal Corp were a private corporation and operated as they do now, they would be belly up in a week. The only thing that keeps the U.S. Postal Service going is that it is legally a monopoly. Any private firm that attempts to deliver first class mail will be criminally prosecuted.

It works like organized crime. If an outsider tries to muscle in on the racket, the people who run it will end up with broken legs or wearing concrete overshoes.

ruveyn



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15 Aug 2009, 11:22 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

And there were rabbis in New Jersey recently caught dealing illegally in body parts. Should I therefore be convinced all rabbis are crooks?


Only members of the Kosher Nostra.

Keep in mind that governments are not subject to the daily discipline of market competition. They have less incentive to perform well than do private firms and individuals. If the U.S. Postal Corp were a private corporation and operated as they do now, they would be belly up in a week. The only thing that keeps the U.S. Postal Service going is that it is legally a monopoly. Any private firm that attempts to deliver first class mail will be criminally prosecuted.

It works like organized crime. If an outsider tries to muscle in on the racket, the people who run it will end up with broken legs or wearing concrete overshoes.

ruveyn


Which is why the smart businessmen who produced and sold a wonderfully expensive and useless batch of F22s to the US government were so efficient. A major order was canceled through government efficiency but the super sharp businessmen nevertheless saw to it a bunch still got through. Nothing like business efficiency.



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15 Aug 2009, 11:27 am

Sand wrote:

Which is why the smart businessmen who produced and sold a wonderfully expensive and useless batch of F22s to the US government were so efficient. A major order was canceled through government efficiency but the super sharp businessmen nevertheless saw to it a bunch still got through. Nothing like business efficiency.


Businesses are far from perfect. But unlike governments, they don't have armies and police forces (guns, chains, whips and dungeons) to enforce their will, unless, of course, they bribe governments to provide the muscle. Relations with business are voluntary. If you don't want to do business with a business then don't, unless it is a regulated monopoly like the utility company. And even then one can do without. If you don't want to buy electricity from the utility, then generate your own. If you don't want to buy water from the utility, then dig a well or ship in your own. If you don't want to buy food from the local super market, then change vendors or grow your own.

Unfortunately, if you try to evade your taxes, your property will be seized by force and you may end up in jail.

ruveyn



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15 Aug 2009, 11:39 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

Which is why the smart businessmen who produced and sold a wonderfully expensive and useless batch of F22s to the US government were so efficient. A major order was canceled through government efficiency but the super sharp businessmen nevertheless saw to it a bunch still got through. Nothing like business efficiency.


Businesses are far from perfect. But unlike governments, they don't have armies and police forces (guns, chains, whips and dungeons) to enforce their will, unless, of course, they bribe governments to provide the muscle. Relations with business are voluntary. If you don't want to do business with a business then don't, unless it is a regulated monopoly like the utility company. And even then one can do without. If you don't want to buy electricity from the utility, then generate your own. If you don't want to buy water from the utility, then dig a well or ship in your own. If you don't want to buy food from the local super market, then change vendors or grow your own.

Unfortunately, if you try to evade your taxes, your property will be seized by force and you may end up in jail.

ruveyn


Of course. Just watch Microsoft tremble and whimper if you write it a nasty letter or your local phone company when they arbitrarily overcharge you. Or the mining companies chopping off the tops of mountains in West Virginia and polluting the area. Businesses are really so sweet and docile. Those ripoff mortgages they dumped on the public destroying the housing market are just a sign of their compassionate efficiency.