Is Atheism a threat to Freedom

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15 Nov 2010, 3:37 pm

:roll:

Again you're going about the same intolerant behavior you accuse me of.

I sincerely doubt Martin Luther King Jr. would have lead the Civil Rights movement if he was an Atheist.

The idea of atheism can excuse all kinds of discriminatory behavior, and while scripture can be taken out of context to do that, it goes a step further than mere mistranslations for one's own ends and actually would consider doing away with people like us okay because some people have more value than others.

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15 Nov 2010, 3:49 pm

waltur wrote:

@inuyasha:

i don't understand why you refuse to accept that humans can see the benefit of cooperation without being obsessed with an imaginary voyeur.

teamwork and cooperation work. no magic required. i have a huge fishtank that is harder to move than a fridge. i just moved from one upstairs apartment to another. a neighbor whom i baby sit for was more than willing to help me with my terribly heavy tank. do i do favors for him as a specific contractual agreement that he do favors for me in return? no. i do favors for him because he needs favors and i'm not a dick. if i can make his life easier without making mine too much more difficult, i do. because he knows this, he's more willing to make my life easier when he can do so without making his own much more difficult.

when it comes down to it, we both get more benefit with less stress than we would if we didn't cooperate.

cooperation: it's not magic. it doesn't require magic.

why don't you ask pat tillman why he decided to switch from pro-football to being an army ranger? must have been his (lack of) faith in god, right?

your bronze age mythological magic sky wizard is no more responsible for maintaining "Freedom" than odin, osiris, shiva, quetzalcoatl, or mickey mouse.

in fact, your bronze age mythological magic sky wizard is probably much less responsible for maintaining "Freedom" than mickey mouse.

Indeed, recently I became bogged, I knocked on a door the woman who answered said her son would be home soon and she would send him out to see if he could help, he turned up, but couldnt tow my car out but knew a mate who had the necessary gear to do the job, half an hour later the second guy turns up, pulls my car out, refuses any sort of material thank you and goes on his way. I will probably never see either of these individuals again.

So why did they do this, hardly some major super ego running amok. Society needs us to work together to function, the vast majority of people know this and help out where they can. Wherever possible I lend a hand, always stop to check on people broken down at the side of the road etc, I have no belief in god, no fear of the supernatural drives me to help others, no super ego to maintain. If anything god and its worshipers are great restrictors of freedom and cooperation

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Inuyasha
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15 Nov 2010, 3:53 pm

They may have also helped you out of their religious principles that all humans have value in the eyes of God.

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15 Nov 2010, 3:55 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

ok let's try this again.

atheism is the lack of religion. start there. imagine two countries. one is ruled by a religion. we'll call this country "iran." now let's imagine another country. in this country, religion is tolerated and often promoted but there is a "wall of separation" between it and the state. we'll call this country "the united states of america." stop imagining. this is earth: 2010. which style of government do you think is more likely to support your notion of "Freedom?"

would you rather live in an islamic theocracy or a secular society?

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15 Nov 2010, 4:00 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

They may have also helped you out of their religious principles that all humans have value in the eyes of God.

you're right, inuyasha. that may have been their motivation.

that assumption doesn't seem to give as much credit to their intellects or morality as dentarthurdent's explanation, though.

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15 Nov 2010, 4:03 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

So why did they do this, hardly some major super ego running amok. Society needs us to work together to function, the vast majority of people know this and help out where they can. Wherever possible I lend a hand, always stop to check on people broken down at the side of the road etc, I have no belief in god, no fear of the supernatural drives me to help others, no super ego to maintain. If anything god and its worshipers are great restrictors of freedom and cooperation

We are all fellow travelers on the Road of Life. Maybe that is why people help other people.

I suspect there is a wired in empathy at work that is operative in most people.

ruveyn

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15 Nov 2010, 4:10 pm

waltur wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

They may have also helped you out of their religious principles that all humans have value in the eyes of God.

you're right, inuyasha. that may have been their motivation.

that assumption doesn't seem to give as much credit to their intellects or morality as dentarthurdent's explanation, though.

waltur, that is the height of arrogance to assume people that believe in God must be stupid... If you were in congress it wouldn't suprise me if you would have been one of the people kicked out of office.

You accuse religious people of intolerance and you just demonstrated the very intolerance you accuse Christians of.

Is it the fact that Christians can recognize they have their flaws and for some reason Atheists can't?

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15 Nov 2010, 5:15 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

waltur wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

They may have also helped you out of their religious principles that all humans have value in the eyes of God.

you're right, inuyasha. that may have been their motivation.

that assumption doesn't seem to give as much credit to their intellects or morality as dentarthurdent's explanation, though.

Why can't you simply accept that others do not share your beliefs? Isn't that the epitome of arrogance and intolerance? Some people believe in God, and some don't. As long as no one forces their beliefs on others, then who cares?

In general though, Atheists tend to experience a bit more in the way of intolerance. We'd be more likely to have a Latino lesbian for president than an Atheist. Could you imagine if it said "there is no God" on our money? I think hell would freeze over first, and I don't even believe in hell.

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15 Nov 2010, 5:21 pm

number5 wrote:

Stop projecting your faults onto me. I don't mind if people don't share my beliefs. I do mind when I am basically being called a stupid bigot because I happen to be Christian.

number5 wrote:

In general though, Atheists tend to experience a bit more in the way of intolerance. We'd be more likely to have a Latino lesbian for president than an Atheist. Could you imagine if it said "there is no God" on our money? I think hell would freeze over first, and I don't even believe in hell.

It's the way you go about slamming people because they actually believe in some higher power, that causes people to react negatively towards you.

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15 Nov 2010, 5:21 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

They may have also helped you out of their religious principles that all humans have value in the eyes of God.

Or it could be that all humans have value in the eyes of humans who aren't dicks. "The eyes of God" are not a prerequisite for seeing that all humans have value. Human eyes are quite capable of seeing that all on their own. And if you actually sit down and read some religious texts, you'll see that plenty of gods that have been supposed throughout the ages, including but not limited to the one in the Bible, are in fact fairly consistently described as not seeing that all humans have value. They tend to pick out specific groups of people as having value and other groups as being worthless (see for example your Bible's attitude toward homosexuals).

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15 Nov 2010, 5:28 pm

Vince wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

They may have also helped you out of their religious principles that all humans have value in the eyes of God.

As you neglect to point out, the Bible is laid out more as a historical text or record not a rulebook.

Also didn't Jesus say, "Let he whom is without sin cast the first stone."

From a Biblical standpoint, the new testament trumps the old testament.

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15 Nov 2010, 5:32 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

waltur wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

They may have also helped you out of their religious principles that all humans have value in the eyes of God.

you're right, inuyasha. that may have been their motivation.

that assumption doesn't seem to give as much credit to their intellects or morality as dentarthurdent's explanation, though.

waltur, that is the height of arrogance to assume people that believe in God must be stupid... If you were in congress it wouldn't suprise me if you would have been one of the people kicked out of office.

You accuse religious people of intolerance and you just demonstrated the very intolerance you accuse Christians of.

Is it the fact that Christians can recognize they have their flaws and for some reason Atheists can't?

i merely pointed out that you assumed a less complex motivation.

you make the case you accuse me of reaching for quite nicely without my help.

bolded: "the height of arrogance" indeed.

i like that you not only assume dentarthurdent's helpful acquaintances are not only religious, but share your own faith.

those damn "Atheists." you know there's no need to capitalize any tense of the word "atheism," right? i know not everyone conforms to conventional capitalization (least of all myself) but, combined with your repeated assertions about atheism, your particular penchant for capitalizing atheism is intentional as you consider it a proper noun. "atheists" may have much in common with each other but there is no requirement that they have anything in common further than a lack of belief in god.

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15 Nov 2010, 5:36 pm

@ waltur

I'm going to quote the part that you said which led to my comment about you being intolerant.

waltur wrote:

that assumption doesn't seem to give as much credit to their intellects or morality as dentarthurdent's explanation, though.

So don't try to weasel out of it, what you said seems to be how you actually feel about people whom are religious.

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15 Nov 2010, 5:39 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

As you neglect to point out, the Bible is laid out more as a historical text or record not a rulebook.

Also didn't Jesus say, "Let he whom is without sin cast the first stone."

From a Biblical standpoint, the new testament trumps the old testament.

bolded: hilarious in this context.

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15 Nov 2010, 5:45 pm

waltur wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

bolded: hilarious in this context.

You're taking it out of context again.

I know that I have the diplomatic tact of freight train. That said, I have no personal animousity towards you, I don't think that you aren't intelligent.

I do think Atheism has serious flaws and on this issue it is my belief that you are wrong. Further for the record wasn't it either you or one of your other friends that said go ahead and post a topic like this on Atheism.

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15 Nov 2010, 5:52 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Vince wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

They may have also helped you out of their religious principles that all humans have value in the eyes of God.

Yeah, the Bible is laid out as a "historical text" (a very thickly embellished and largely made up historical text, but I digress), in which God occasionally (actually pretty often) pokes his head in and turns it into a rule book (he actually comes in and gives precise rules as to how life should be lived, and a lot of those rules are absolute madness).
And didn't Jesus also say, albeit in slightly different words, that everything in the old laws is unchangeable? (I'll give you a chance to dispute this before I go find the exact quotes for you.) Jesus was a very self-contradictory person if you take all the gospels as true. I guess it runs in the family, huh?
Anyway, my point is that considering how much this God character seems to change his mind arbitrarily while still saying that his old opinions stand, and considering how often his opinions are completely idiotic, I'd rather trust my own view that all humans are equal, in my own eyes, than go by the hearsay about the eyes of some invisible sky daddy who wants people to worship him. Just my personal preference.

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