look at what these famous non muslims say about muhammad

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVsHjnY-o9s[/youtube] The Universe wasnt created in 6 days and was more than 6000 years old by far more!

Because otherwise we're not really following Islam, we're making up our own religion by just taking the pieces that we like. Say I really really wanna drink, and I decide, everything from the Qur'an prohibiting it doesn't really apply to the modern world, and all the hadiths about it are fabricated, then am I actually sincerely trying to obey God, or am I only listening to my own selfish wants? Maybe I still follow some of the other restrictions, but at that point, it would probably just be because it wasn't important enough to me to think of an excuse to ignore them.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing that Muslims believe all the authentic hadiths, can you tell me what reason there would be not to?

Because some of them are, in the modern world, seen as extremely inhuman and barbaric in their attitudes to women, to apostates, to unbelievers and to people in general? The one about the stones and trees is genocidal, for a start.

Do you seriously believe, as a human being, that Jews should be killed for being Jews? And would you kill a Jew yourself for Allah?

I'd be horrified and livid if anyone said that Muslims should be killed for being Muslims.

This is what I'm getting at - most Muslims are much like anyone else, but the religion's texts are rotten and stone age.

There are lots of peaceful parts of the religion, and there are hundreds of millions of peaceful adherents that don't cause harm to anybody. Doesn't mean to say that the religion is peaceful and you can't even claim it's like Christianity (where evil, criminal, murderous bastards used and abused the teachings of Jesus to make war, to oppress, to enrich themselves, to subjugate, to murder, to rape, to genocidally destroy in some cases their own people and others for millennia), because it's built into the thing.

Needless to say, Cei (and that rhymes) I support you in your spiritual quest (especially learning to read Quranic Arabic - that will take some doing, I'd expect!) and I hope you don't take things personally. There is no atheist light or anything like that. There is only your own light, your own truth. You have to live life as you see it. For some people I don't dispute that some of the less harmful forms of religion might actually be good for them.

My question was broader. It was 'why follow any of Islam?, rather than why follow parts of it.
What makes you think the sources you have are to be accepted?

Salad, the two options are not: either believe islamic scriptures are acurate or believe they're all inacurate. It's about trying to find the best explanation to a series of historical events. Now, I believe the hadiths have some truthness to them, but it's not black and white. If, for example, Aisha herself declared that she and mohammed had sex when she was 9 I would be inclined to believe. If there is a description of a good action of mohammed, I have no problem believing it. Now there is a problem: he can't have both a terrible personality (confirmed by many instances) and a altruistic personality (confirmed in many instances). There's a contradiction here. So what explains best this contradiction? That he was a cult leader who acted acording to his interests and that included being nice sometimes so that he would inspire people. Any smart person knows that a religion, in order to be popular, has to have a good side to it. Otherwise satanism would be a major religion.

You can either choose to have the irrational explanation that Aisha was a fully matured woman at 9 years old and that it is apropriate to kill apostates (etc.), or you can have a more rational explanation that mohammed was an impostor.

I eat pork I drink alcohol I have sex before marriage and don't follow a dead guy nor believe the world is 6000 years old. I am athiest an don't let make belive beings dictate my life or old books either.If anyone wants to try to kill me because their religion dictates to kill nonbelievers ill be waiting and will defend myself! I say bring it! This is America!! !

And there's the obvious point that if Muhammad is meant to be emulated to the fullest extent by Muslims today... then that makes the religion morally messed up.

Having sex with (or, rather, raping) nine year old girls is a good example. If I did that, I would be in prison.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i_M5AlF0Mw[/youtube]

please please tell me what's wrong with legally marrying a girl who was mature enough to get married and both agreed to the marriage and both remained happy with each other?? if she was happy and he was happy THEN WHAT THE HECK WAS WRONG WITH IT AND WHY IS IT ANY OF YOUR BUSINESS?? Did he rape her?? did he abuse her?? did she marry against her will? NOOO!! Was she happy? did she love him? did she refuse to divorce him even when he told her if you want all the gold of this world you may divorce me?? YES!! It's okay for a man to marry a woman his age and beat her and brutalize her every day, as seen in this country, but it's immoral to marry a girl who is a lot younger BUT is able to get married, is treated with affection, love and respect, made happy and given equal rights??? am i missing something?? everyday the Prophet Muhammad PBUH used to kiss Aisha on the cheek before going to the prayer. what beautiful love. he used to play with her, be affectionate with her, and be a paragon of a true husband, yet the only comment is "he married someone younger than him". also there are many scholars who say that she was 14-18, meaning she was probably older than 9. whether she was 9 or 14, she was unambiguously and unanimously able to get married. evidence? the non muslim media at that time scrutinized and were always on the look out to criticize, humiliate and expose the Prophet with every available opportunity. if that was the case, then why did both jews and pagans stay quiet regarding his marriage to Aisha?? even they saw nothing wrong with it, his own sworn enemies if they were here today would even admit that this isn't a big deal. notice how not a single anti islam media outlet ever criticized his marriage to Aisha, all the pagans, Jews and other sworn enemies of the Prophet didn't even find this worth mentioning as a way to downgrade islam, simply because at the time people considered this normal. she was able to get married. if she wasn't then he wouldn't have married her. he wanted to marry her as soon as she was able to get married, and whatever age it was then that was the age he married her. if it was 14 then it was 14. if it was 9 then it was 9. likely she was older, depending on the accuracy of the narrations, and most scholars are saying it was 14. i honestly don't know how old she was, many scholars say she was older then 9, which makes more sense. id say between 14-16 ish would be a fair age to assume. the narrator who said 9 was said to have a weak memory as he and, and his narration was when he was much older.

You are trying very hard to make it sound like it was an innocuous thing, but you still haven't explained why he would get married to her instead of just treating her like any other girl/woman he didn't marry.

Explain why the marriage was necessary please. Even your fellow Muslims over at the forum you linked to admitted it wasn't right for anyone else to get married to a little girl.

You chose the irrational side. Therefore I'll leave the discussion.

I gave an excellent argument, yet speechless you try to act condescending and act like my argument was irrational, despite how it made an excellent point regarding his marriage to Aisha. Unless you can refute my argument, the only irrational post was your retreat from my discussion due to lack of argument to prove his marriage wrong. I assume that you stopped reading after the 1st sentence and didn't bother to read everything I had to say. fine by me. i did my part, it's not my fault you aren't open minded.

he wasn't even the one who proposed the marriage. Abu bakr, her father did. and guess what? he refused because she wasn't old enough. if he were a pedophile he would have married her at that time. years later when she was old enough he married her. he wanted her to grow up in his household to be directly exposed to the teachings and lifestyle of islam, and coupled with her sharp and sane mind she was a perfect preserver of thousands of islamic hadiths and traditions. she narrated thousands of hadiths and narrated among the most hadiths. second, why is it your problem. she was happy. he was happy. WHAT THE HECK IS YOUR PROBLEM, Why do you care? they both loved each other with undying love. both were happy. they used to play, joke around, get along, and have fun, and never in Aisha's life did she ever complain about him. you're being a hypocrite. a big hypocrite. the fact that you have a problem with this marriage even though she was able to get married despite how successful this marriage was but you don't seem to mind all the tragic marriages in this country where both man and woman of the same age hate each other and then divorce is bewildering. seriously, i honestly wonder why people are against his marriage to her. a bunco of hypocrites if you ask me. i have to be blunt when describing how i feel about the hypocrisy in condemning such a marriage only because of age, but paying no attention to the millions of men who beat their wives in this country and other countries all over the world. he loved her, never hurt her, treated her like a princess, what more do you want???? why is it any of your business. she was proud of the marriage. she couldn't have asked for anything more.

explain that to me. please, I'm curious, what you have against this marriage when not even his own enemies used to care. his own sworn enemies didnt say a word against this marriage, yet somehow you find it wrong???? interesting....

Good to see that they are human enough and honest enough as people to admit that. This is progress.

in islam reaching the age of maturity means you can get married. islam didnt say get married to little girls. it says once you reach the age of puberty and maturity you are able to get married.

it's not that complicated. jeez

You're taking it way too personally. It's not you I'm attacking, so quit with the ad hominem please. And explain to me why it was necessary for him to get married to her. Why did he agree to getting married to a little girl knowing that this would've been forbidden for all the other men his age?