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Greb
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24 May 2013, 1:14 am

Tyri0n wrote:
The problem is the social expectations that force these roles on men and women because of their gender. Some men are better caretakers, and some women are better at making money. Yet society stigmatizes women who don't get married and have kids, and society stigmatizes men who aren't traditional "providers" (and women are as guilty of this prejudice as men); therefore, there is a lot of pressure on women to do things that distract from a career, like raising children, a problem exacerbated by the lack of a decent public daycare system in the U.S./UK, which partly contributes to the pay disparity. But it's still sexism. It's just more deeply embedded sexism.

So you have a combination between society's sexism and an actual glass ceiling (which may or may not be overstated, depending on the field), and that's the were the pay disparity comes from. It's still sexism, even if some of the contributors to it look like individual choice.


Roles in a society goes much farther from sexes. I had to study a specif kind of degree because it was the family stuff. I was supposed to fullfill a role. Everyone is supposed to fullfill a role, and not only because his/her sex. But these roles in women, in the western world, don't go farther than 'when you're gonna have kids?' questions. There's powerful business women and politicians, and they're respected.

Truth is that most of women want to have kids and focus in the family. Have you been in a company ever when a colleague brings the newborn? Many women choose family over work. Usually feminist say that this is because gender roles, what implies that their true nature is to be as keen of career as men are. Funny thing with it is that feminist claim that society imposes a role to women... and to solve it they impose their own view and roles to them. They decide that women would have similar preferences than men if gender roles wouldn't be there. Did they ask women what they prefer? Nope. I have see feminist groups supporting theories deciding what women really want, but hardly seen those same groups asking women what they really want. Feminists treat women as children: "you don't know what are your real preferences, so I'm gonna tell you what you want".


Tyri0n wrote:
Anyway, the whole point of this thread was that given that men have all these advantages, I'm curious why some men would get bitter and say women have it better. These must not be men who are able to take full advantage of the patriarchy because, everywhere I look, men have higher-paying jobs and little trouble dating because men in high-prestige jobs are typically swarmed by women looking to get into their pants; it's more than just their money; it's the aura of power and attractiveness they give off. Men who do not experience this or recognize the patriarchy for what it is and how it benefits them are clearly lacking in personal qualities possessed by a significant % of other men.

I would compare MRA's and gender to an analogous situation involving socio-economics. For example, to a WASP rich kid who alienates her wealthy parents and ends up homeless on the streets washed out by MDMA. Then, she sees poor minority classmates going to college and even a few going to Harvard and Yale, and she says, "poor minorities have it easier." No, they don't. You have to look outside yourself at the full picture. She had every advantage in the world in America's f**** up corporatist classist society but blew them all. On AVERAGE, WASP kids do much better than poor minorities from a socio-economic point of view. Those WASP kids who do poorly are simply losers.


Well, most of women have a relative succees with dating. It's not like they have men begging them to marry, but usually they have no problem to find a partner (if they go out, of course, if they're shy and stay home nothing happens. Life happens outdoors).

With men is different, it's more a "the winner gets it all" scenario. Do you think that this is better: fine, help yourself. You're a man, so congrats.

Doing an analogy with economics: if I could choose, I would prefer to be born in a country with a wide middle class, where nobody is too poor and nobody is too rich, instead of a country where people is poor and where an elite that gets all the money. It's far less stressful.

I understand that as a man there's some rules for the game. That's life, period. But claiming that they are better for men? C'mon.


marshall wrote:
The MRA-like claim that men are just naturally inclined to work harder, and have the exact same burden as women in terms responsibilities outside of work.


And? I didn't ask about what MRA says. I asked you about what you say that is't unfair women get less average salary. Why are you avoiding the question again and again?


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Greb
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24 May 2013, 1:19 am

Shau wrote:


I remember that quote because I LOVE this movie. And I do not think it was told as you think it was told :lol:

Real quote:
Vizzini: HE DIDN'T FALL? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
:wink:


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24 May 2013, 1:24 am

Oh the princess bride!

Now I remember that part :lol: I missed it because I haven't seen the movie yet. I think I know what I will do tomorrow~


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24 May 2013, 1:29 am

Discussion seems to be getting pretty heavy and someone suggested that we move this thread to PPR



Greb
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24 May 2013, 1:34 am

Shatbat wrote:
Oh the princess bride!

Now I remember that part :lol: I missed it because I haven't seen the movie yet. I think I know what I will do tomorrow~


Get a good bag of chips and a couple of beers. You're gonna wath this movie for first time. I envy you, dude. :D


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24 May 2013, 1:36 am

I sure loved the book, and I've heard the movie is also a great one but on it's own way instead of copying the book, so I definitely look forward to it!


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24 May 2013, 1:39 am

WHAT IS IT?

Kjas is lost. :(


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24 May 2013, 1:40 am

Watching the movie :P


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Greb
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24 May 2013, 1:43 am

Shatbat wrote:
I sure loved the book, and I've heard the movie is also a great one but on it's own way instead of copying the book, so I definitely look forward to it!


I found it very similar in spirit. The movie translates perfectly the humour in the book to the big screen.

"My name is Iñigo de Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." EPIC! :D


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24 May 2013, 6:19 am

No-one is a loser because they can't get sex or a big salary. You become a loser by being full of hate.


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24 May 2013, 6:22 am

eric76 wrote:
I used to know one strident feminist who would wear clothes that always reminded me of a clownish caricature of men's suits. I've seen many other women in appropriate and nicely done business attire, but she's the only one who I ever saw wear anything like that.

It was as if she thought that she needed to wear something resembling men's suits in order to be on the same level.

Even stranger was that she didn't actually have a job except briefly. I saw her in other places on a number of occasions and she never wore them elsewhere.


People can wear whatever they like without it being a political statement. Maybe she had gender identity issues? You just chose to read it that way.


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24 May 2013, 6:28 am

Kurgan wrote:

I agree with you when it comes to the unf*cked losers, though. They're the man equivalent to the ugly and masculine woman who think men are intimidated by her college degree or the fact that she works full-time.


It's possible to be an ugly, masculine woman and still be a pretty chill person. I think I prove that.


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24 May 2013, 6:38 am

Greb wrote:
And I do not think it was told as you think it was told :lol:


Yea I know, but knowyourmeme.com didn't have the proper quote in any of it's little pics, so I had to pick the closest thing.



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24 May 2013, 1:56 pm

Greb wrote:
Tyri0n wrote:
The problem is the social expectations that force these roles on men and women because of their gender. Some men are better caretakers, and some women are better at making money. Yet society stigmatizes women who don't get married and have kids, and society stigmatizes men who aren't traditional "providers" (and women are as guilty of this prejudice as men); therefore, there is a lot of pressure on women to do things that distract from a career, like raising children, a problem exacerbated by the lack of a decent public daycare system in the U.S./UK, which partly contributes to the pay disparity. But it's still sexism. It's just more deeply embedded sexism.

So you have a combination between society's sexism and an actual glass ceiling (which may or may not be overstated, depending on the field), and that's the were the pay disparity comes from. It's still sexism, even if some of the contributors to it look like individual choice.


Roles in a society goes much farther from sexes. I had to study a specif kind of degree because it was the family stuff. I was supposed to fullfill a role. Everyone is supposed to fullfill a role, and not only because his/her sex. But these roles in women, in the western world, don't go farther than 'when you're gonna have kids?' questions. There's powerful business women and politicians, and they're respected.

Truth is that most of women want to have kids and focus in the family. Have you been in a company ever when a colleague brings the newborn? Many women choose family over work. Usually feminist say that this is because gender roles, what implies that their true nature is to be as keen of career as men are. Funny thing with it is that feminist claim that society imposes a role to women... and to solve it they impose their own view and roles to them. They decide that women would have similar preferences than men if gender roles wouldn't be there. Did they ask women what they prefer? Nope. I have see feminist groups supporting theories deciding what women really want, but hardly seen those same groups asking women what they really want. Feminists treat women as children: "you don't know what are your real preferences, so I'm gonna tell you what you want".

The problem is society likes to deny the existence of people who don't fit into the normal roles and forces them into the closet. That is the reason for social justice movements IMO. It's not about claiming everyone is biologically identical. It's about letting people know they have a choice to not follow the norm if their desires don't match the 90% consensus. Traditionalism resists against this in the bizarre belief that allowing people to choose not to follow prescribed roles will lead to some kind of social collapse. Traditionalism has no empathy for those who don't fit the norm. It would prefer to deny they even exist.

Quote:
marshall wrote:
The MRA-like claim that men are just naturally inclined to work harder, and have the exact same burden as women in terms responsibilities outside of work.


And? I didn't ask about what MRA says. I asked you about what you say that is't unfair women get less average salary. Why are you avoiding the question again and again?


It's not strictly unfair but it can be documented that prejudice exists against women who choose to defy gender roles. It goes beyond differences in biological preference in that there is a tendency to enforce the norm and ostracize the deviants. To say it is 100% a matter of job performance is offensive. The Almighty Hand of The Free Market is not blind justice that rewards productivity and nothing else. In reality the people in control of wealth are not immune to petty prejudice against all kinds of people. Bitter right-wing MRAs who use the "free market is blind, prejudice no longer exists" cliche do so in order to slam women.



Last edited by marshall on 24 May 2013, 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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24 May 2013, 7:00 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
It's possible to be an ugly, masculine woman and still be a pretty chill person. I think I prove that.


I don't know if you're 'ugly' or 'masculine' or not, but judging from your posts you're definitely chilled AND clearly a northern lass, so OK in my book. :thumright: :lol:

I just read through 16 pages of this crap. Why did I do that? Typical autie 'I've started so I MUST finish' compulsion I guess. You all suck, for the most part. I feel sorry for BlueMax, who clearly has been at the sh1tty end of the gender stick and is understandably aggrieved about it. Some folk have made reasonable points on both sides. Some people have bleated propaganda. Such is PPR. Can this thread die now?


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24 May 2013, 7:32 pm

Feminism/misogny/MRA are an interesting argument but I don't really care to read thru 14 pages of this.

As for OP, I don't find what you're saying to mean much and it's needlessly insulting. "The losers of the system" is an interesting way of phrasing it, I imagine the losers of any sort of system probably would find issue with that system. You could say(and I'm sure it has) that the women suffragists were losers and weakest of weak in more oppressive times. Calling people fat ugly losers who need to get laid seems to be a pretty common line of attack to people challenging your world view unfortunately.

Personally, I've always found men that self identified as feminists tend to be your white knight types that think women will like them better for standing up for them. These poor desperate souls really need to get laid... :P