Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

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I understand that’s how you feel. You haven’t quite accepted that nothing is ever guaranteed...ever, for anyone. Nobody owes you a job just because you got a degree or because you’re breathing. You’d be worse off of that were the case because you’d be obligated yourself to teach and to train, which in turn would see you frustrated because you’d have all these victims running around throwing their job in your place and screaming about why you’re not doing more for them.

I will agree with you on one thing: College does NOT adequately prepare anybody for anything besides becoming college professors. Degrees are really just advanced participation trophies and don’t make you really any more competitive. If you are the kind of person who tirelessly leads and inspires, you’ll end up climbing the ladder and finding success. If you are mediocre, you’ll get as far as your skills will take you and no farther. If you are too busy whining about how unfair the world is, you’ll be lucky to get anywhere at all. I was taught from day one that college degrees open all the doors, get you big jobs, and make you successful. I believed it and staked my career on it. I may be crying now, but the least I can do is try to stop other people from crying about it. You success depends on YOU, not what college you went to. Heck, not even experience counts for all that much REALLY. If that’s all you have to fall back on, you don’t have much. Make better decisions than I did.

AngelRho, AngelRho, AngelRho I've accepted entirely that nothing is guaranteed ever. It is one of the main reasons I think personal responsibility is a crock. Personal responsibility entails that it is one's choices that led to one's negative outcome. It entails that one is the captain of his own ship and controls his destiny. Because we're guaranteed nothing ever as you say then it can't be true that it is our choices that led to one's negative outcome, one can't be the captain of his own ship and one controls his own destiny. You say make better decisions. Any decisions I make guarantees nothing not even statistical probabilities so how can one really make better decisions then you or anyone else really? The logic that is thrown at me makes absolutely no sense and contradicts itself.

And, as for whining and crying at first they did whine and cry and then they were inspired to storm the Bastille.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 17 Dec 2020, 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

my limited reading of Kierkegaard tells me that free will is mythological.

Not what I was getting at. The only person you have control of is yourself. Stuff happens beyond your control, yes. But I think you might be conveniently ignoring is that people do have reasonable, limited control over their circumstances, regardless of whether those were circumstances initially within their control. Rather than focus on what they cannot do, successful people reflect more on what they CAN do. Within the range of possibilities within your reach, you can do some pretty amazing stuff. But I’m not pretending the American dream as it was taught to me was anything more than a lie. I can sympathize with you to a large degree in that I think we experienced many of the same things in our respective contexts, but at the same time I’m witness to the potential we have for creating change and regaining control over our lives. And I still say nobody owes you special treatment for any reason, regardless of your range of ability, nor is it the proper role of government to hold your hand and walk you through every step of success. Even when successful people and mentors do try to spoon feed emerging talent, unmotivated and mediocre people refuse to show them any faith or consistent effort only to go home and whine and cry about how life is unfair and rich people refuse to make them successful.

Obviously you’ve overcome much to end up successful in China. What do you think maybe we could learn from your experience?

Ok, it was the grace of God, my SO and my family that I was able to get into China a while back before covid-19 and then get a job.

It is true that one has control over one's actions and what he does. But is it true that one has control over what options are presented to him and is it true that one always has control over the awareness of what these options are?

Those aren’t really questions we concern ourselves with. You seem to be focused on what a person has a lack of control over.

You don’t have control over what you’re presented. That’s dependent on other people or situations. No, there’s not always any awareness of options.

Before you mentioned unknown unknowns. You’re not aware of what those things are, but you ARE aware that there are some things out there that you can’t possibly know. Successful people constantly seek to minimize the areas of life they lack awareness of, to reduce the number of questions they don’t know that they should be asking. What always happens is these people make mistakes they didn’t even know were mistakes. But then they remember and stop repeating mistakes. If someone is too afraid to make mistakes and learn from them, they don’t make it very far.

Rather than waiting on options to present themselves or waiting to gain awareness of something, they are continually in a process of seeking out their options and learning as much as they can to become aware of things. They accept that there are people who know more than the they do and seek these people out for advice. I’d say the best leaders aren’t necessarily the smartest people on the planet. They know just enough to have goals and pursue them, but possess the humility to seek out people who can help them achieve those goals without having to do everything themselves. I use Python to create experimental music. Nobody told me HOW. I had to break down what I wanted into small tasks and slowly try out bits of code to figure out how to do what I wanted. When problems got too technical, I watched YouTube videos, crawled through GitHub, and gradually pieced together what I needed. Sometimes it meant finding programs already written in C++ and working backwards. I also spent some time in the FaceBook Puredata group. I might ask the occasional question, but I also offer as much advice as I can. When you try to help people, a lot of times you find people with questions that have you totally stumped. But when you independently try to find the answer, you learn more things along the way, things you didn’t know you didn’t know.

Thing is...nobody is going to tell you all that. I mean, maybe I will, but people who are truly outstanding in what they do assume that everyone else out there is doing the same thing. They’re not going to take you by the hand or spoon feed you everything. There’s not enough time to make someone a success AND do what they do. But sometimes they do show their playbook to give other individuals the recipe for success. My favorite book in that vein is 7 Habits Of Highly Effective People. Dale Carnegie’s How To Win Friends And Influence People is good, too, and of course, The Art Of War. To me, those books are the best when it comes to human relations, and pretty much every self-help book out there is some variation on these.

They don’t tell you how to make it in the music biz, for example. But if you want to make a living playing rock and roll for the rest of your life, you CAN do it. You just can’t depend on major labels and management to do your work for you. You start out playing in as many cover bands as you can, maybe learn more than one instrument, practice hard, get really good at what you do. Don’t try to write originals on your own. Work with a collaborator. Pay your dues playing bars, night clubs, outdoor festivals, and whatever you can line up. Plan and manage your own tour, hit the local and stare fair circuit. Do YouTube videos, build a following on social media, sell physical units in person and get distribution through, like, CDBaby. If you stick to it long enough and supplement your income through related side-jobs like teaching lessons, artist development, etc., you’ll do well enough you’ll do better than break even. Major labels notice stuff like that and will give you a call. If you’re already making millions as an indie, what do you need a major label for? But if you think they can help you do more than you’re already doing, they can get you a wider audience and give you more time for creative work.

What nobody tells you is how many times you’ll sleep in sleeping bag on someone’s living room floor, or how many couches you’ll sleep on, or how much sleep you’ll be losing. They don’t tell you how tired and discouraged you’re going to feel. They don’t tell you how unique your experiences are and that literally NOBODY has gone through what you’re going through, but we all know what that’s like, too. And sometimes it’s just easier to go back to washing dishes at McDonald’s.

And finally, the most useless things people DO tell you: well, that’s just life. COVID hit and I decided it would be a GOOD idea to quit my job. I only got two interviews and took the only offer. My wife had a baby soon after I started my new job. Meanwhile, we’re stuck with a house we can’t sell with mold in the bathroom and an overflowing septic tank with a broken field line, kitchen cabinets that are falling apart, holes in walls, and half the house is leaning. We have NOT been here before...all new territory, all new learning experiences. The difference is we are older, the kids are more independent and can help. So when you are beleaguered over unknown unknowns, just remember you’re still young. We’re in our 40’s and still young! Whatever it is you’re dealing with, even when people give advice you think is perfectly useless, you still have time to learn and understand.

Relating to personal responsibility, just remember that you’ll get there a lot faster the less you HAVE to wait on someone to do it all for you. Use your time wisely.

The issue is the OP taking it too literal but in the past when I have explained what something would mean, it wouldn't get us anywhere.

It's like explaining to someone what "raining cats and dogs" mean and they would still be focused on cats and dogs falling out of the sky after you have told them it means raining very hard you get soaked in seconds.



What's your story with this house? Sounds like a house that needs to be condemned and demolished and if the city knew about it, they would condemn and make you move out. All it takes is someone to report it to the city. It could be neighbor, repair person. If this is a rental, then the landlord is breaking the law.

I don't even remember us having this conversation. But, if we did have the conversation I could tell you why I may not have understood you. It's because it's because if I don't grasp the logic of how we got from A to B to C to D I'm completely lost. In other words, I'm an extremely algorithmic thinker.

As for the meaning of raining cats and dogs my brain would would want to see it algorithmically or step by step.. I would say all you need to know all is that have to do is simply just tell me that it is the given definition and that is how NTs see it. And, then tell me there is no algorithm, code or logic that tells one how they got from it's raining cats and dogs to it's raining really hard. As an analogy basically just simply accept that + means to add and mathematicians simply assigned that symbol to adding. That's it! Nothing more!

In other words, simply just tell me it is a given and that's it. I can accept that.

And, you're saying I'm taking this to literal. But, the thing is I don't know how I am doing so.

AngelRho, In my college programming class for VB.net I had to experiment and look things up online and in a book. And, I had to sometimes ask people online and trawl through forums that did exist. And, when I wanted to know how to manipulate Excel spreadsheets through VB.net and VBA I had to trawl through forum answers, look stuff up online, maybe ask an occasional question online and experiment as well.

Is this what you're talking about and is this what is expected of me when looking for a job and a career? Am I expected to try things out, maybe research stuff, experiment (even with interview questions maybe experiment with an answer). Is this what was expected of me in the USA?

The things I did to master programming languages like VB.Net am I expected to apply to other things like job hunting and other things in life? In other words, am I supposed to generalize the things I did to figure out VB.Net and apply it to other things in life as well?

If the answer is yes then for me at least it's like going through a bunch of Alice's Rabbit Holes and it is like reading The Handbook for the recently deceased from Beetlejuice.

This is what I feel like I'm dealing with when it comes to the modern workplace and conservative demands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gpt2Zb5V5A

I went and looked up Dave Carengie's book on wikipedia. Very interesting!

Reading the bit I've read on wiki I'm going to try a different approach.

I have the feeling that I may not understand what personal responsibility means and what "nothing is guaranteed" means as well.

I thought personal responsibility the idea that one causes his own actions and it is his own actions that lead to the consequences. Because one causes one's own actions one is responsible for his own consequences. And, I thought that "nothing is guaranteed" means that there is no rule, path, or anything that one follows that will assure one of the consequences one wants.

I thought the word contradiction meant that a concept or something that is and isn't at the exact same time in the exact same instance.

I thought both the idea of personal responsibility and the idea that nothing is guaranteed fit what a contradiction was. Both ideas and concepts are and are not at the same time in the same instance.

Am I wrong? Am I misunderstanding something somewhere?

AngelRho, you're a very intelligent and patient man can you continue to please be patience and continue to use your intelligence to show me where I am wrong if I am wrong?

Another thing, when I think of influencing and manipulating people I think of Adolph Hitler, Donald and P.T. Barnum who said "there is a sucker born every minute."

When it comes to carnegie am I misunderstanding his intent? I don't want to be the psychopath that manipulates people.

Personal responsibility simply means you take ownership of your circumstances and actions. It does NOT mean accepting blame for what you didn’t do. It does not mean accepting an unacceptable status quo. If you want change, then make change. But if you made a mistake or you can affect your circumstances somehow, then you respond positively with correcting your behavior or situation. What you don’t do is place blame or wait on someone else before you take action.

Nothing is guaranteed because our world and our values are dynamic. There’s no magic formula for becoming a millionaire. But there are habits that contribute to building wealth that will result in at least more security and freedom. In the same way, being born into wealth does not guarantee that someone can stay wealthy.

Contradictions don’t exist by definition. If you think something is contradictory, check your premises. At least one of them is wrong. Paradoxes, otoh, do exist and are not contradictory. Personal responsibility is nothing more than taking ownership of self and circumstances. It’s knowing that there are laws that protect you from muggers and other violent criminals, yet still avoiding that dark alleyway. It’s knowing that laws protect girls from sexual assault, yet still not sneaking out of the house to go to a drug/alcohol infused party. Doesn’t mean bad things can’t happen in broad daylight or at home. Just means you assert control as much as you reasonably can over your own life. And yes, if you are caught committing a crime or harming someone, you don’t deny it. You make every effort to restore what you messed up and go the extra mile. There’s no contradiction between no guarantees and responsibility because there’s no relationship between the two. Responsibility will get you farther faster, though. Success depends on many more factors than responsibility, but responsibility is always a huge help.

If you’re worried about being a manipulative psychopath, chances are good you’ll never become one.

Carnegie’s message is still relevant. Human beings never fundamentally change. We are selfish creatures by nature. Carnegie builds on the foundation that man’s highest value is the self. Whether accumulating money or seeking sexual gratification, the central aim of every person is to feel important. How you succeed with friends and influence depends on how well you appeal to this self-importance. If you fail at reciprocity, you will fail at human relations.

Carnegie’s take on love is not fundamentally different from Rand’s. Human love is the expression of the values people have for each other. You don’t take a woman out on a date and buy her dinner because you expect her to have sex with you. You buy her dinner as a reward for spending time with you. What you get out of her is her time and her company. The false assumption with Carnegie is that the only reason for being nice to someone is to get something out of them. For Carnegie, love or even the simple desire to do something nice for others is enough. If you think you HAVE to manipulate or extract something from someone, you haven’t really understood Carnegie. For Rand, there is ALWAYS an explicit exchange. But Carnegie isn’t really a philosopher and doesn’t take a philosophical approach. Rand is much more thorough and elegant.

Please Do Some Actual Research; Never Mind, I'll do It; Healthy Humanity Living in Balance is Altruistic.

Living Out of Balance; Not So Much; Indeed, Culture Will Breed Folks Selfish in SCaRCiTY; Yet Balancing

In Abundance As they Age for those Who are Altruistically Healthy As Contributions Grow Even More.

It Feels Really Good To Give For Some Folks; And Science Shows that the Affect/Effect of Just One Truly

Selfless Altruistic Act Will Generate Higher Levels of General Happiness For Months to Come;

However, That is

Only For Folks

Who Have

The Organic

Ability to Feel this

Agape Love For the Rest of Existence;

Yep; The Thingie that the Teachings of 'Trademark

Jesus' Center Around, Per So Many Ghost Authors; Yes,

'Brands' With Pen Names, Like 'Luke, Mark, Matthew, and John';

Yet to Be Crystal 2020 Crystal Clear; the Stories are Not Consistent

With Pure 'Lucifer Light' And Do More Psychopathic Tendencies Like Torturing

Someone Naughty Forever In An Eternal Fire; Surely Beyond, Even Just 'Trump Selfish';

Now, Okay; Obviously, We (At Least me), Get an Intrinsic

Benefit for Being Altruistic

If WE Actually Feel and

Sense the Benefit of This Bliss

of For Giving Thanks Giving This Kingdom of Heaven Within.

It isn't Really Hard to Listen to Someone's Viewpoints on Life,

And See where they Lie On the Spectrum From Black Abyss of Hell

Through Purgatory Shades of Grey to Beyond Rainbow Colors of the

ALL Natural

Bliss

That

A Philanthropist

Feels; Again for those

Who have the Ability to FeeL it;

For There are also Quite A Few

People Like Trump Who always

Tend to Feel/Sense the World Like An Unreformed

Grinch Now in All they Say and Do In Actions of Life...

Really Empty Inside, With Little to No Flame of Agape Love FOR ALL

LiGHT Thru DarK;

Indeed,

i too

Have

Sympathy

For that Emptiness;

However, it didn't last an Entire Lifetime

For me; Just a Short Stint in Hell, 66 Months, to Develop Sympathy for 'Devils'

Like Trump' Indeed, Who Will Steal An Election no Different Than a Modern Day Hitler

ALL FOR SELFISH PURPOSE;

Of course that Nature

Was/Is Acceptable

Enough to 74 Million Folks;

Indeed, there is A Deeper Real All Natural CuLTuRaLLy iNDuceD Illness

Brewing in the United States; the Death of Human Empathy and Altruistic Selfless Love....

All the Suffering and Misery that goes When the Fire of Responsibility For Giving Thanks Giving Agape Love Dies out...

Wait (Don't Wait) Till 'You' Are 60. Perhaps, You'll Reach Fowler's Level 6, Pyramid Capstone of Altruistic For Giving Thank

Giving Love too, Where Responsibility is Actually Felt for the Welfare of All Existence Transcending Tiny Human Selfish Desires....

"Stage 6 – "Universalizing" faith, or what some might call "enlightenment". The individual would treat any person with compassion as he or she views people as from a universal community, and should be treated with universal principles of love and justice."

Oh Yeah, Additionally, Maslow Started Off With 5 Levels of Pyramid Rising and Ended With Self-Actualization;

Realizing, He Left The Highest Pyramid Capstone of All Seeing Eye of Love; Human Beauty of Wisdom in For Giving

Thanks Giving Transcending Love For All of Existence; Later He too, added A 6th Level For the Love Capstone too...

Indeed, All Light Bringers These Men are; Sadly, The Story of Jesus got a little confused as No You Don't Wanna

Do Unto Others the Way You Wanna be Treated; Yet, When Altruistic For Giving Thanks Giving Love Breathes

it's precisely

The Opposite;

We Treat Others

The Way They Want to

Be Treated; Yes, Like Transgender

Folks Going to Their Bathroom and

Allowing Gay Folks to Get Married

No Less than Holy and Sacred Sacrament

Of this Agape Love; And Of Course; Love

Does Least Harm; Science Shows Getting Rid of

Legally Safe Medical Abortions and Eliminating Free

Access to Effective Contraception Only, Generally, Increases the Frequency

And Harm of Abortions to all folks concerned; Might does not Make Right

In Authoritarian Ways; Love Makes Kindness, Courage, Wisdom and Beauty for all

In Light of Truth

In Love

Bringer

Ways

Of

Justice

And Compassion

For Real; Indeed the 'Name

Of Jesus' Soiled By Trump Church

And State Hand-in-Hand away from

Agape Love all that's Left is Light Bringers Now For Real...

-me

Hehe Otherwise

Known, Felt And

Sensed as 'Lucifred' by Some... HAHa...

Yes, Don't Get Caught up in Myths, No;

ALL iT means is -me With Light (Agape Love) to Give and Share Free...

Also to Be 2020 Crystal Clear, This is Directed At No one Person; Yet, the General

Idea (Op) of

'This Thread'...

"Transcendence
Main articles: Transcendence (philosophy), Transcendence (religion), and Self-transcendence
In his later years, Abraham Maslow explored a further dimension of motivation, while criticizing his original vision of self-actualization.[15][16][17][18] By these later ideas, one finds the fullest realization in giving oneself to something beyond oneself—for example, in altruism or spirituality. He equated this with the desire to reach the infinite.[19] "Transcendence refers to the very highest and most inclusive or holistic levels of human consciousness, behaving and relating, as ends rather than means, to oneself, to significant others, to human beings in general, to other species, to nature, and to the cosmos".[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_W._Fowler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#Transcendence

https://around.uoregon.edu/content/research-suggests-people-become-more-selfless-they-age