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DW_a_mom
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13 Jun 2009, 7:49 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:

ed wrote:

I notice those are all from the Old Testament. Jesus Christ made a new Covenant - can you find us some references from that New Covenant?

It goes with the commandment Thou Shall Not Kill.
The Commandments didn't change they stayed.
But if I find anything I will put it up.

It is the Thou Shall Not Kill commandment that has me confused as to why you could state any mixed feelings about the killing of Tiller. It was wrong, period. There are no "buts" in the Bible. We are not to judge or kill.

For the record, I am a practicing Christian. Since it seems to make a difference to you. But I don't agree with all you've posted.

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ruveyn
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13 Jun 2009, 7:55 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Shadowgirl wrote:

ed wrote:

I notice those are all from the Old Testament. Jesus Christ made a new Covenant - can you find us some references from that New Covenant?

It goes with the commandment Thou Shall Not Kill.
The Commandments didn't change they stayed.
But if I find anything I will put it up.

Bad translation from the Hebrew. The Commandment is

Loh tirtzacha which is better translated as do not slay or do not murder. Killing is rightful warfare, for example, is not prohibited by this Commandment. Nor is self defense or killing in defense of another.

This mistranslation is typical of what happens when the Goyim mangle the Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures. Boo! Hiss!

ruveyn

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Last edited by ruveyn on 13 Jun 2009, 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

twoshots
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13 Jun 2009, 7:56 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Shadowgirl wrote:

ed wrote:

I notice those are all from the Old Testament. Jesus Christ made a new Covenant - can you find us some references from that New Covenant?

It goes with the commandment Thou Shall Not Kill.
The Commandments didn't change they stayed.
But if I find anything I will put it up.

The original Hebrew word may better be rendered in English as "murder" from what I've read; there was a clear distinction between wrongful and just killing. The idea that the commandment is a universal injunction against killing is a semantic misunderstanding.

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DW_a_mom
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13 Jun 2009, 7:56 pm

Zornslemma wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

Zornslemma wrote:

Shadowgirl wrote:

Your not a Christian what gives you the right to call me out?
Personal attacks that is really immature.
Nobody in the world is perfect you are a sinner like me and everyone else on the planet.

I can only pray that you will repent for this behavior and come to a relationship with God.

Just because you are a christian and cognito is not does NOT mean that the rules(like not judging others lest thou be judged) dont apply to you,Shadowgirl! The fact that christians think that because they are more righteous that God will let them get away with things that non-christians cannot really says a lot about the TRUE PURPOSE of religion!

I think you're misunderstanding her intent -- she's responding to blatant insults and accusations of un-Christian conduct from a non-Christian who doesn't understand Christianity very well.

I don't think she's saying that the rules don't apply to her or any other Christians (they certainly do). If you have a point to make about it, by all means make the point, just don't get nasty about it like in the post she was responding to.

Its personal reasonable for religious people to be reminded that their conduct is not consistent with the principles of their faith.
MANY people behave in ways that go against the beliefs they promulgate. Of course if a christian is doing or saying something unchristian then its to be expected that they will try to cover their ass by claiming their critics dont understand christianity.

Cognito went too far in his post to Shadowgirl and it would have been edited but that became irrelevant, in my opinion, when Shadowgirl decided to quote the post and strike back. As far as I'm concerned, we should call it even and stop debating who had the right to say what to whom. The players already know how the mods (this mod, at least) felt about it. ALL personal attacks in this thread need to be stopped, period, end of story.

For the record, in my experience, when a Christian tells a specific person, who has not asked for counsel, that they should repent, it tends to indicate that the Christian is not currently holding much if any respect for that other person and whether they see it that way or not, it can be a veiled personal insult. I've had people say that to me simply because they take issue with the particular church I attend; it can be quite insulting. Since all the surrounding tone et al that might clarify intent don't exist on a message board, it is better not said here.

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amazon_television
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13 Jun 2009, 8:27 pm

twoshots wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Shadowgirl wrote:

ed wrote:

I notice those are all from the Old Testament. Jesus Christ made a new Covenant - can you find us some references from that New Covenant?

It goes with the commandment Thou Shall Not Kill.
The Commandments didn't change they stayed.
But if I find anything I will put it up.

Thank you!

I hate how people fail to acknowledge these "semantic misunderstandings" that are scattered thru the bible--or even the mere POSSIBILITY that they exist, if they don't know the specifics.

And I actually am not sure if I ever heard that one before.

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13 Jun 2009, 8:32 pm

It is an unfortunate fact that many people try to read between the lines in the bible with neither a grasp of the original languages, nor an interpreter's bible, nor yet apparently even an awareness that the book was written in anything other than their native tongue.

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DW_a_mom
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13 Jun 2009, 9:06 pm

amazon_television wrote:

twoshots wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Shadowgirl wrote:

ed wrote:

I notice those are all from the Old Testament. Jesus Christ made a new Covenant - can you find us some references from that New Covenant?

It goes with the commandment Thou Shall Not Kill.
The Commandments didn't change they stayed.
But if I find anything I will put it up.

The point stands. The Bible tells us not to take matters into our own hands and kill someone because we, personally, don't like something they've done. The semantic argument has nothing to do with the point, IMHO. There was no trial, no agreement that it could be considered just. It was one person's decision and one person's action. That is ALWAYS murder. If it were not, we'd have anarchy. Most people who murder would argue they had some good reason for it; the problem is, that reason is usually only in their own mind.

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DW_a_mom
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13 Jun 2009, 9:16 pm

twoshots wrote:

So let me ask this. Are you all trying to say that a Christian may, within the dictates of the Bible, actually have mixed feelings about the murder of someone like Tiller? My comment about that is, after, what prompted the last 3 or 4 comments, upon which your's is built. I am telling Shadowgirl that Christian teachings are clear about someone choosing to murder Tiller: murder is WRONG and we should feel sad that a murder was committed. Period.

I've done my study, I assure all of you. I may not quote the Hebrew, but I've studied the likely intent of possible interpretations of many controversial passages. It been years and I am not about to lay it all out here, but the insinuation that I made an invalid point because I didn't lay out all the subtlties of the linguistics is ridiculous. Is that how the radical edges of the pro-life movement justify murders like this? That not ALL killing is wrong, so this might just fit the exception? Surely it does not. I firmly believe that there is no doubt in the minds of the vast majority of theologins. Who HAVE studied the original languages. And context.

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twoshots
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13 Jun 2009, 9:41 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

So let me ask this. Are you all trying to say that a Christian may, within the dictates of the Bible, actually have mixed feelings about the murder of someone like Tiller?

It is not mine to say.

Quote:

My comment about that is, after, what prompted the last 3 or 4 comments, upon which your's is built. I am telling Shadowgirl that Christian teachings are clear about someone choosing to murder Tiller: murder is WRONG and we should feel sad that a murder was committed. Period. I've done my study, I assure all of you. I may not quote the Hebrew, but I've studied the likely intent of possible interpretations of many controversial passages. It been years and I am not about to lay it all out here, but the insinuation that I made an invalid point because I didn't lay out all the subtlties of the linguistics is ridiculous.

It is not a ridiculous conclusion given such a use of an ambiguous passage. The particular interpretation of "though shalt not kill" that I was refuting has appeared on this forum ad nauseum, and it seemed as good a time as any to address it.

Quote:

Is that how the radical edges of the pro-life movement justify murders like this? That not ALL killing is wrong, so this might just fit the exception? Surely it does not. I firmly believe that there is no doubt in the minds of the vast majority of theologins. Who HAVE studied the original languages. And context.

Presumably, justifying killing relies upon the assumption that there exists justifiable killing, yes. However, if you'll direct your attention to ruveyn's post above, I think it is pretty apparent that using that particular commandment for your argument is an abuse of the text. If the point that killing Tiller is wrong needs to be made, surely it can be done better.

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13 Jun 2009, 10:48 pm

Yeah, the Bible says "Thou Shall Not Kill. " and yes, most likely that meant murder.
It also seems to command the death penalty for some unnacepted acts such as described in Leviticus 20.

I believe many Christians may claim that Jesus Christ abolished these practices, as with the story with the prostitute about to be stoned, John 8:7-11, and also Matthew 5:38-41, Luke 9:52-56.

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14 Jun 2009, 9:15 am

twoshots wrote:

There are multiple different translations, some more word-for-word, some more phrase-for-phrase. Even if you only use a single translation, you can look at the context and other passages to get a good idea of what was being said.

It doesn't hurt to be fluent in ancient Hebrew and Greek, but it isn't required.

DW_a_mom wrote:

So let me ask this. Are you all trying to say that a Christian may, within the dictates of the Bible, actually have mixed feelings about the murder of someone like Tiller?

I think that is possible. You'd have to believe that late term abortions kill a human person (which pro-lifers already do), and that Tiller knew this to be true. Or that his death would save people from being aborted.

I can see only 2 permissible Christian views -- deplore the whole situation, or have mixed feelings. I don't think that there is any possible interpretation that allows being fine with it.

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ruveyn
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14 Jun 2009, 10:42 am

greenblue wrote:

Yeah, the Bible says "Thou Shall Not Kill. " and yes, most likely that meant murder.
It also seems to command the death penalty for some unnacepted acts such as described in Leviticus 20.

There is no "most likely". The verb used in the Hebrew language scripture is not the general verb for "kill" (harag) or "to cause to die" (haymit).

Well know translations, in particular the King James Version are shot through with errors and bad translations. For example Isaiah 7:14. The Hebrew word for "virgin" is not in the original scripture for that verse. Correctly translated it means a young woman shall conceive. The Hebrew word -almah- means a young women of marriageable age, not virgin (Heb -b'tulah-).

This is what happens when the gentiles translate Jewish material. They get it wrong.

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14 Jun 2009, 11:04 am

ruveyn wrote:

Well know translations, in particular the King James Version are shot through with errors and bad translations. For example Isaiah 7:14. The Hebrew word for "virgin" is not in the original scripture for that verse. Correctly translated it means a young woman shall conceive. The Hebrew word -almah- means a young women of marriageable age, not virgin (Heb -b'tulah-).

The same word was used to mean both young woman and virgin.

Quote:

This is what happens when the gentiles translate Jewish material. They get it wrong.

Yes, gentiles are genetically incapable of understanding ancient Hebrew. :roll:

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14 Jun 2009, 11:28 am

DW_a_mom wrote:

twoshots wrote:

Just to clear the air, my comment was not directed at you at all--looking at the quote pattern now I can totally see how you'd think that, but that wasn't my intent. Mine was a pretty tangential comment any way you slice it. The interpretation of "thou shalt not kill" has little to do with this discussion as I see it, as what happened to Tiller was unquestionably "murder", and whether abortion amounts to "killing" vs "murder" vs "neither of those" is purely a matter of opinion (of course this has been covered at length in this discussion, and now it's all just running around in circles).

I believe completely that you have done your studies on all this. However I can't say the same about shadowgirl, as I have posed direct questions to her on these linguistic issues more than once in other threads (as well as cultural context issues, which you mentioned also, and which I believe are more important in these interpretations), and she has not yet even attempted to respond.

ruveyn
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14 Jun 2009, 2:44 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

Yes, gentiles are genetically incapable of understanding ancient Hebrew. :roll:

Not genetic. Cultural. Gentiles lack the oral tradition that goes along with the written scriptures. To read the scriptures correctly one needs the cultural context that goes along with them.

The use of the word "virgin" in Isaiah goes back to the translation of Hebrew scriptures into Greek (Septuigent). The translators could not get a good Greek translation of "almah" so they resorted to the Greek -portemos- which translates into English as -virgin-. The Jewish community in Alexandria had both the scriptures (mostly Hebrew) and the -targem- (Aramaic) translated to koine. Mistakes occured in this translation and carried into English later on. The only safe way to read scripture is in the language in which it was written. Any translation is bound to introduce errors and distortion.

Also there are political and theological considerations. The committee that produced the King James version (an English translation) of scripture had a theological axe to grind. They assumed the Hebrew scriptures were a foreshadowing of the later Christian doctrine. It is not true, but that is what they assumed. The scriptures that were collected and made canon by the exile Jewish community in Babylon were of Jewish origin and had a Jewish agenda. This was done 500 years before the time of Jesus.

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14 Jun 2009, 3:19 pm

ruveyn wrote:

The Hebrew word for "virgin" is not in the original scripture for that verse. Correctly translated it means a young woman shall conceive. The Hebrew word -almah- means a young women of marriageable age, not virgin (Heb -b'tulah-).

Hmm, for the sake of accuracy on translation, yes.
I wonder though, did they have another word for a virgin as being a virgin, mentioned in other parts of the Bible? Given that women had to bleed at sex after marriage to prove they were 'pure'.

And another small observation, a young woman of marriageable age would have to be a virgin anyway, so it is not as people could not see them as equivalent or something like that, and given that marriagable age started once menstrual cycles started.

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