Gun "control" - to protect or disarm the citizens?

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Hmmf. Semiauto for civilian use. And you obviously do not live in California...

Apparently one of the risks with a civilian AR 15 firing mlitary ammo is a slamfire. I read about that once, alebit with a British ballistics scientist and a different gun, but the result ended up with him having his head Gouda cheesed...

So why do you want this gun? Is it for any other purpose other than freedom? Remember, I'll snap if any more ad hoc arguments are given...

5.56/223 Rem? Do they still come in 7.62/308?

For clarity, I would like to put my position.

Cigarettes and liquor are not freely able to be sold to just anyone. Neither should firearms, and I don't know of anywhere in the world where just anyone can buy them freely.

DaveB78 had to show proof of ID and his concealed carry permit (evidence he has had a criminal background check and is otherwise a good and responsible citizen). I have no doubt Quatermass, if you went into a gun shop in Texas or California and wanted to buy one, there is no way you could.

I believe that government has an obligation to the community as a whole to make it as safe as con reasonably be done, without resticting the rights of responsible citizens. A conflict arises when the community does not feel safe, and then unfounded emotional rubbish arguments arise as to how to make people feel safer. Whiners and whingers want a nanny state.

There should be reasonalbe controls on licensing of people who can own guns. Its when this gets unreasonable there are problems. To some, all guns are bad and they will not feel safe while their next door neighbour has a shotgun or hunting rifle. But taking this away will not make them safe. It will make them less safe from criminals who take no notice of the law and from excesses of government.

In the 1960's Victorian Police had the right to search any house without a warrant if they thought there may be a gun inside. Civil libetarians had this law amended after it was abused . Since 1996, the government has put this provision back.

Lets not get hung up about extremes. No-one is advocating a 10 yo.o should be able to buy an Ouzi just for fun.

Sure, some guns are designed to kill. But not all. Quatermass & Hypermind, do a search on Anshutz rifles. Have a look at target rifles and pistols. Personally, I like hunting guns and rifles. I kill ducks, quail, feral pigs and goats and live in hope of a sambar deer. So what's the problem with a gun that kills?

Aren't you concerned about governments wanting to control and restrict responsible and law abiding citizens for no practical benefit to society? Surely this is a step towards totalitarianism.

As I have said, Bazza, I have very little objection towards you having one, as you understand how to use a gun responsibly. I suspect Litigious does not, and DaveB78 wants them as a Freudian enhancement thing.

Thank you for referring to me and Hypermind as separate entities. While I do feel like I have multiple personalities, I don't think it is wise to unleash 'em on the net.

And it's Anschutz.

The way Litigious is going, he would let a 10 year old have an Uzi for fun. As in a real Uzi, which I call the "Israeli Firehose", as that would be how some people use it, just spray back and forth.

There are steps towards totalitarianism that are much more concerning than gun control laws. Have a look here and tell me if you think if that is not a bigger step towards totalitarianism than gun laws. Guns are powerful, but information even more so, especially misused information. The good ol' USA is heading towards tyranny, and it's still got the second. I'll place odds on not just whether the USA becomes a despotism, but also whether citizens (successfully) rise up with the second amendment. I think you'll be in for a rude shock.

Again, Bazza, I have no objection to you shooting for hunting. Or having an old gun as an heirloom.

Freudian enhancement? You bet. Quartermass, I have been a shooter since the 1950s, God willing I will continue to shoot until I am no longer physically able. That being said, I bougt this rifle because some months ago I sold one similar to it and decided I missed it and wanted one again. My "armory" would no doubt frighten you, but be assured in nearly 50 years of active shooting I have never had an accident. I still have the first .22 rifle my Grandfather gave to me at age 7...the gun itself is nearly a hundred years old and functions perfectly as do all of the other antique firearms I have...you see, not only are they for killing as you say, they are also for remembering.

Very true. I have a 303 SMLE No.4 MkI and 98 Mauser. Would like an 03 Springfield, but not common here. I wouldn't want any wall pieces (would have to be shooters) but would not actually use them.

Remembering, I can live with. I have no issue with that. My dad still has an air rifle that belonged to his old man, and may be even older than that...

It is the eventualities you are prepared for with the working parts of your armoury that frighten me...

The point is, guns do not kill people, but rather, the people using the guns. You can't control people, given that that would be a dictatorship, but you can control guns. Which is the crux of my point.

At last, you have actually given a response that satisfies me to some degree. While I still think you're a right wing nutter ( ), at least you have reasons for having a gun other than just shooting.

Which leaves just Litigious.

litigious, you bitter freak. you completely blinded and biased by your hatred and bitterness, and people like you are the reason guns should allways be and stay illegal.

yes bullies are bad, but there just children. i know this really sweet girl whos a precious friend of mine that from what i heard used to be quite a bully. now the friend she shares a floor with was one of the girls she used to pick on and there great friends, though there friendship seems to have ben declining recently. nontheless, children do not deserve to die on account of being children, no matter how horrible they are.

yes iv been bullied the s**t out off, and i used to be bitter and resentfull, i got over that. people suck, we all do. get used to it. there are still purely good souls out there, but youll never ever find one, cause you are just a bitter egocentric fool, and come off as a complete a$$hole.

you could never responsibly own a gun. hence they should be illegal.

yes its peoples fault that colombine scenarios happen, or that german kid that killed 17 people at some school (14 teachers, 2kids, 1cop), that doesnt mean people should have the freedom to do so, thats never a good thing. lots of people get screwd and think about such scenarios, iv extensively fantasized about blowing up my school, and about killing my parents, but these are terrible disasters and should be avoided at all cost. if you had any bit humanity left in you, youd know this. from what i reckon your a lost cause, and stereotype as a classic comicbook villan. your lost to humanity. i pity you

What do you mean, "used to be" lol
Please (if you have not already) read the earlier posts (before you joined WP) and see that this is an emotive issue. I attacked Quatermass (spelling OK?) and regretted it. I am more careful to attack arguments, not people.

Is your Dad licenced and is the air rifle registered? You know under Victorian Law (other States are supposed to be uniform but there are differences) this is a criminal offence and he faces 5 years in jail!

Don't laugh, there was a busker in Melbourne who used a toy gun in an act. It looked realistic (not a replica, but a toy he bought in a kids toy shop) he was arrested and a Magistrate found him guilty. Potential jail time of 5 years, but he was let off with a fine. I am serious.

Thanks for attacking arguments and not people, Bazza. And for correct spelling, ha ha ha.

Actually, we live in Queensland, and I do not live with him anymore. I'm not even sure if he has it at the moment...

I'm torn between getting the police to look at it and cause him trouble for what he's done to me , and destroying his father's heirloom...

is "used to be" incorrect spelling? i have no idea. i dont see why it matters though..

and i only attack people if they need to be attacked. and i sure hope your not going to agree with litigious that bullies should be murdered do you?

(sotto voce) I think he means you STILL ARE bitter.

Well I don't agree with allowing bullies to be killed.

It's not WHO you attack, but HOW you attack that disturbs me....

No, I think Litigious is going a bit feral (term used in Australia - means going wild or too far).

"used to be" was a little joke. In other words, why are you using a past tense, implying you are still bitter and resentful, but I say this as a joke, not an insult.

All them same, I think some of your anti gun comments are ab it extreme, but I am getting tired of this argument.

Of course I don't mean that you shouldn't pay for the gun. But I'm against all kinds of licenses on guns. The best (state) gun law in America is Vermont's. There it's illegal to make any local law that inhibits the possession of a gun!

Wrong. Cigarettes and liquor are totally free to buy for children in many countries and in Vermont guns are totally free, except for fully automatic machine guns. In Montana there's no age limit to buy a gun, even if you need to be 14 to use it without the supervision of an adult:

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=MT

If it was an intelligent and responsible 10 year old, why not? Some 10 year olds had guns in the American West 150 years ago and in Yugoslavia as late as in the 1930s. And look at my post with the link to the Montana gun law. In Montana a 10 year old can buy a gun legally, if not a Uzi, so at least a gun that an adult would need a coward license in your country or mine and have to wait some months or years to get...

Last edited by Litigious on 05 Oct 2006, 4:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

M-16 / AR-15 are 5.65 mm some have been mod for 9 mm etc but a 308 version would
be based on completely different parts I think it was AR-10?

A 1 in 7 twist would make the bullet not tumble. That a military barrel design for heavy
AP ammo. 16" barrel thats the carbine with a colapsable stock. Very compact and lite.
Oh the ideal twist is 1 in 14 for a 5.65 mm for non-AP ammo for kill power. But in cold
weather 1 in 12 is more stable so most non-AP barrels have been 1 in 12.

Oh I read a book by Eugene Stoner the designer of the AR-15/M-16. It got a bad rap
in Vietnam. When it was first issued soliders were not given cleaning kits for it!