Things you dislike about your country.

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I wasn't talking about you in specific. In general accusing people of envy is a type of trolling regardless of whatever real ideological disagreements there are. I'm sticking to that. If you want to twist that into me calling you a "troll" merely for disagreeing with me then go right ahead. It only damages your own credibility.

Medieval serfs were illiterate, owned nothing, and basically had no hope but to go on laboring until they dropped. I think the middle class in the US is doing a lot better than that.

What do you think about corporations like Bank of America paying no taxes at all? Remember this is a corporation that is part of our fractional reserve banking system that creates money on paper to loan it to you and me at interest, and makes uncounted fortunes doing so. Pays. No. Taxes. While helping to put Americans in deeper debt, bankruptcy, and to foreclose on their homes. Money BofA created just to loan it. They didn't earn it. It came from nowhere, didn't exist until they created it by the magic of paperwork, to loan it to someone for interest.

Something is wrong with that.

I think that corporations should not be subsidized at tax-payer expense. And they should not be bailed out if they are failing. If a business cannot make it, then it should go bankrupt.

ruveyn

1. Maroccan immigrants, and not all of them. If they dress a certain way, and walk a certain way. You just know they are going to be trouble. There's like two sides. One half of the Maroccan immigrants are the nicest people in the world, the other half doesn't respect our culture and country the slightest and rob/rape/demolish everything in sight. In bad neighbourhoods they hang around on the street all night harassing women and challenging men. 50% of them has been in court at least once before they turned 21.
If you want to ban me for racism or whatever fine, just know that it is the general idea in our country that the failed integration of Maroccan immigrants is a problem to be dealt with.

2. Right wing political parties that are solely based on false anti-muslim accusations. They want to adress the immigrant problem but they are looking at it from a religieus point of view. Driven only by hate, they propose ideas like a tax on headscarfs etc. Im especially talking about the PVV, which translates into Freedom Party. It isn't even a party, it is a movement. So that they don't have to show where their money comes from (Israel). the members of the party don't have any influence..it's all about Geert Wilders like some scary dictator.

3. Congestion. A normal working man spends an average of 6 hours a week in a traffic jam here.

4. The bad state of education, schools tend to spend more money on luxery buildings to draw students than on good teachers. Teachers barely earn any money here, the good teachers are all retiring and there aren't really any new ones flowing in.

5. Traffic law, finally they make an American style highway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-zX4cEv2S4
They limit the maximum speed at 100 km/h, 120 km/h is the standard maximum speed on roads here. Some long stretches of roads are 130 km/h. And if you exceed the speed by just 4 km/h a camera will get you and fine you hard.

6. Afghanisan involvement, let me clarify this. We had troops in Afghanistan, withdrew them. Then the US asked us again to send troops. The public opinion said no, so they called it a police mission. They ensured us that our troops were only there to train Afghan police officers.
A few weeks later they send in F16's and Apaches..

I live in the Netherlands, and these are all the things I dislike. It is still the best country in the world.

You have no logical arguments, only opinions. "Taxation is coercion and coercion is wrong in all circumstances, period" is opinion, not fact. Just as "profit is exploitation and is wrong in all circumstances, period" is opinion, not fact. You have no facts, only opinions. Get it? I brought up the beliefs of hardcore Marxists to attempt to give you some idea of what your ideology appears like from an outside perspective. Marxists will tout that their "labor theory of value" and assertion that "profit is stealing" are fact rather than opinion. I do not agree with either of these two rigid dogmas (neither Market Fundamentalism nor Marxism have a basis in reality, they are opinionated dogmas, not facts). Now that I've tried to explain to you with as much calmness and patience as I can muster I predict you and your comrade ruveyn will ignore my point regardless and continue on with the "tax = theft" drivel. I know you guys are both more intelligent than that which is the reason it's so damn exasperating to keep hearing the same old thing like a broken record.

Really? My family members who were alive during the Great Depression and who were involved in the labor movement described clawing and striving for work, and had a very different perception of FDR.
And incidentally, your friend Paul was against tithing; instead advising believers to give as they were moved.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

All giving should be voluntary. Anything not given voluntarily is taken by force or fraud.

ruveyn

Ok well not everyone feels like they are being 'forced' to pay taxes...some people understand why taxation exists and have no problem with it at all. So if they abolish taxation then what should be created in its place? it taxation is abolished the things taxes fund will either cease to exist due to lack of funding...or people will have to privately fund all those things and I am not sure that would be the best idea...as then we might go back to the days of your house being allowed to burn down if you could not afford a little symbol above your door to tell which fire department to take care of you becausae only they one you're paying would.

Let them see what happens if they don't pay. Regardless of how we "feel" there are strict legal penalties for not complying. Property can be seized, bank accounts seized and eventually jail. Taxes are collected at gun point whether we "fee" that way or not.

ruveyn

Why should they want to not pay taxes? because you don't want to?...Now I would probably agree that the middle class is taxed to high but my idea of a solution for that is lower the taxes on the middle class possibly raise them on the upper class or create laws to prevent them from getting out of paying their share of taxes. To me that seems more rational than abolish taxes, so there's no funding for public services or the social safety network. Then instating a policy of 'screw you' towards anyone who cannot afford to make ends meet.

Also you should know this when you break a law you risk facing whatever penalties exist for breaking that law...even if you don't like the law. So you either just accept it and live with it, break the law suffer the consequences if caught, or you go out and try and change it.....you could petition, protest or run for office if you are unhappy with the laws in this country.

And you "resort to personal accusations" while, hypocritically proclaiming:

Aren't these "things" technically already privately funded, since all tax revenue is taken from private industry? Wouldn't it be more efficient to cut out the middleman (gov't)?

What you propose, could only function if it was possible to completely cut someone off from receiving any benefits from the government. Even if you live in your own house, on your own plot of land, grow all your own food, make your own clothes etc, you benefit from being within the confines of a community. The problem with objectivist logic is that its a coward's logic, it's survival of the fittest, but with a redefinition of "fittest". The way I view it, I'd be fine with a randian world minus the initiation of force, if we're going to play the "who is strongest" or "who is smartest" game, I'll bring a gun, shoot you in the legs, take your money, and if you are worthy of having it, you'd be able to stop me.

It's like a pacifists natural selection.

Are you sure you understand what a Randian world would be like?

Hence why I said and I quote "minus the initiation of force" meaning minus the BS she put in to prevent the truly strong from destroying the weak minds that followed her. How can I put this, if we're going to be competing, then putting in such silly limitations on private enterprise is counter-productive, I could run a business based on cutting people's throats and selling their blood, or stealing organs who are you to limit my trading?

Objectivists are like everyone else, they are fine with their definition of force, they are fine with coercing people to doing things, but only so long as they agree with the things being done.

Where would industry get any profit without labor to do the work? Consumers to pay for what is produced? Industry is not an independent pot of gold that appears out of nowhere or only through the labors of the CEOs. It's dependent on others to be able to get anything done, including make profit. Industry uses roads our taxes build to transport their goods. That's just for starters. Think about every thing and every service that industry takes advantage of, and you'll find some way in which industry benefits from others paying taxes. But what is happening is that those who profit are now hoping to convince the rest of us that they are magical pots of gold that don't depend on anyone else for anything and therefore shouldn't have to pay something back.

Last edited by SpiritBlooms on 06 Jun 2012, 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.