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ruveyn
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01 Aug 2012, 10:03 am

AngelRho wrote:

That does it...I'm going out THIS WEEK to purchase a nice pocket knife. I've never owned one.

It's hard to weaponize pocket knives, too. They're too hard to open and snap shut after use. If you attack someone with a pocket knife, you have more of a risk of the thing closing on you and cutting your finger down to the bone than you would do actual damage to an attacker. But it does give you an slight advantage if you can wait out an attacker for an opening, or if you're taken captive it's a tool that can help facilitate escape. Not to mention they're just useful for all kinds of things.

They're also collectable and could be used as a bartering tool should the need arise.


Have you studied spring powered switch blade knives and stilettos?

There are also air and gas powered hand guns At close range they can be as fatal as hand held firearms.

ruveyn



LKL
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01 Aug 2012, 3:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:
AngelRho wrote:

That does it...I'm going out THIS WEEK to purchase a nice pocket knife. I've never owned one.

It's hard to weaponize pocket knives, too. They're too hard to open and snap shut after use. If you attack someone with a pocket knife, you have more of a risk of the thing closing on you and cutting your finger down to the bone than you would do actual damage to an attacker. But it does give you an slight advantage if you can wait out an attacker for an opening, or if you're taken captive it's a tool that can help facilitate escape. Not to mention they're just useful for all kinds of things.

They're also collectable and could be used as a bartering tool should the need arise.


Have you studied spring powered switch blade knives and stilettos?

There are also air and gas powered hand guns At close range they can be as fatal as hand held firearms.

ruveyn

Switchblades are illegal most places ;)



LKL
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01 Aug 2012, 3:30 pm

aghogday wrote:
More efficient tools usually lead to higher levels of productivity, whether or not the results of the productivity is judged as positive or negative.

QFT. I'm probably going to steal that.



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01 Aug 2012, 5:34 pm

It is not the killer's guns that should worry you:

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2 ... ers_a.html

Quote:
What distinguished Holmes wasn't his offense. It was his defense. At Columbine, Harris and Klebold did their damage in T-shirts and cargo pants. Cho and Loughner wore sweatshirts. Hasan was gunned down in his Army uniform.

Holmes' outfit blew these jokers away. He wore a ballistic helmet, a ballistic vest, ballistic leggings, a throat protector, a groin protector, and tactical gloves. He was so well equipped that if anyone in that theater had tried what the National Rifle Association recommends -- drawing a firearm to stop the carnage -- that person would have been dead meat. Holmes didn't just kill a dozen people. He killed the NRA's answer to gun violence.

[...]

Essentially, Holmes has called the NRA's bluff. It may be true that the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. But the best way to stop a good guy with a gun is a bad guy with body armor. And judging from Holmes' vest receipt, he wasn't even buying the serious stuff.

The NRA bases its good-guy approach on a well-substantiated military doctrine: deterrence. By arming myself with a weapon that can hurt you, I discourage you from attacking me. For many years, this doctrine averted war between the United States and the Soviet Union. Each side feared mutually assured destruction. What broke the deadlock wasn't a weapon. It was a shield: strategic missile defense. The Soviets understood that a system capable of shooting down their nuclear missiles would, by removing their power to deter us, free us to attack. The best offense, it turns out, is a good defense.

That's what Holmes figured out. Defense, not offense, is the next stage of the gun-violence arms race. Equipping citizens with concealed weapons doesn't stop bad guys. It just pushes them to the next level. The next level is body armor. And unlike missile defense, which has proved to be complicated and disappointing, body armor is relatively simple.


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The_Walrus
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01 Aug 2012, 5:50 pm

^ Sounds eerily familiar to the plot of The Dark Knight.

AngelRho wrote:
That does it...I'm going out THIS WEEK to purchase a nice pocket knife. I've never owned one.

It's hard to weaponize pocket knives, too. They're too hard to open and snap shut after use. If you attack someone with a pocket knife, you have more of a risk of the thing closing on you and cutting your finger down to the bone than you would do actual damage to an attacker. But it does give you an slight advantage if you can wait out an attacker for an opening, or if you're taken captive it's a tool that can help facilitate escape. Not to mention they're just useful for all kinds of things.

I'm not sure what a pocket knife is (a Swiss army knife?) but knives can quite easily be used as weapons. There is a serious problem with knife crime in the UK.



Vexcalibur
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01 Aug 2012, 6:02 pm

Knives. Call me crazy, but I think that distance is quite a factor. Guns allow killing without proximity.

Quote:
^ Sounds eerily familiar to the plot of The Dark Knight.
I guess that's the killer's whole point.


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The_Walrus
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01 Aug 2012, 6:08 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Knives. Call me crazy, but I think that distance is quite a factor. Guns allow killing without proximity.

Quote:
^ Sounds eerily familiar to the plot of The Dark Knight.
I guess that's the killer's whole point.

Yes, guns are better at killing than knives, but knives are still dangerous.

To be honest it isn't like the plot, just the bit where the Joker says that the existence of Batman requires a new class of criminal.



Vexcalibur
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01 Aug 2012, 8:08 pm

Most knives, like the kitchen ones are made with an objective different than killing things. And in fact, effort is put in making it hard for them to be used to cut human parts.

Let's not fool ourselves and claim that guns are the same thing. Guns have a primary objective, to kill things, whether human or animal.


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DC
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02 Aug 2012, 1:33 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Knives. Call me crazy, but I think that distance is quite a factor. Guns allow killing without proximity.

Quote:
^ Sounds eerily familiar to the plot of The Dark Knight.
I guess that's the killer's whole point.


Actually it remind me of Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.

I won't embed the video, it contains harsh language... :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfX3aXtRbLI



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02 Aug 2012, 7:35 pm

number 3:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22729164

Quote:
Legal status and source of offenders' firearms in states with the least stringent criteria for gun ownership.
Vittes KA, Vernick JS, Webster DW.
SourceCenter for Gun Policy and Research, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, Maryland, USA.

Abstract
BackgroundGun possession by high-risk individuals presents a serious threat to public safety. U.S. federal law establishes minimum criteria for legal purchase and possession of firearms; many states have laws disqualifying additional categories for illegal possession.
Methods
We used data from a national survey of state prison inmates to calculate: 1) the proportion of offenders, incarcerated for crimes committed with firearms in 13 states with the least restrictive firearm purchase and possession laws, who would have been prohibited if their states had stricter gun laws; and 2) the source of gun acquisition for offenders who were and were not legally permitted to purchase and possess firearms.
Results
Nearly three of ten gun offenders (73 of 253 or 28.9%) were legal gun possessors but would have been prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms when committing their most recent offense if their states had stricter prohibitions. Offenders who were already prohibited under current law acquired their gun from a licensed dealer, where a background check is required, five times less often than offenders who were not prohibited (3.9% vs. 19.9%; χ(2)=13.31; p≤0.001). Nearly all (96.1%) offenders who were legally prohibited, acquired their gun from a supplier not required to conduct a background check.
Conclusions
Stricter gun ownership laws would have made firearm possession illegal for many state prison inmates who used a gun to commit a crime. Requiring all gun sales to be subject to a background check would make it more difficult for these offenders to obtain guns.

bolding mine.
stricter background checks in areas that have lax background checks could prevent some gun violence from happening.



AceOfSpades
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02 Aug 2012, 11:16 pm

LKL wrote:
Number 1: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18670666
Quote:
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

To examine the incidence and patterns of intimate femicide-suicide in South Africa and to describe the factors associated with an increase in the risk of suicide after intimate femicide (i.e. the killing of an intimate female partner).
METHODS:

A cross-sectional retrospective national mortuary-based study was conducted at a proportionate random sample of 25 legal laboratories to identify all homicides committed in 1999 of women aged over 13 years. Data were collected from the mortuary file, autopsy report and a police interview.
FINDINGS:

Among 1349 perpetrators of intimate femicide,19.4% committed suicide within a week of the murder. Suicide after intimate femicide was more likely if the perpetrator was from a white rather than an African racial background (odds ratio, OR: 5.8; 95% confidence interval, CI: 1.21-27.84); was employed as a professional or white-collar worker rather than a blue-collar worker (OR: 37.28; 95% CI: 5.82-238.93); and owned a legal gun rather than not owning a legal gun (OR: 45.26; 95% CI: 8.33-245.8). The attributable fraction shows that 91.5% of the deaths of legal gun-owning perpetrators and their victims may have been averted if this group of perpetrators did not own a legal gun.
CONCLUSION:

South Africa has a rate of intimate femicide-suicide that exceeds reported rates for other countries. This study highlights the public health impact of legal gun ownership in cases of intimate femicide-suicide.

bolding mine.
If you get into a fight with your partner and are so mad that you want to kill him/her, a gun allows you to do so quickly and easily, before the heat of the moment passes.
It isn't just your average Joe that does this. The whole notion of a crime being committed out of character is politically correct BS. It isn't a matter of just anyone being in the heat of the moment, it is a matter of being habitually violent and impulsive as shown by 74.7% of people arrested for murder having priors for a violent felony or burglary:
Quote:
Gun prohibitionists would have us believe that most murders involve ordinary people driven to kill in a sudden fit of rage only because a gun was present. This is based on HCI's distortion of the FBI Uniform Crime Report statistics. To the FBI, a murderer or rapist that lives in the victim's apartment building, or dueling drug dealers, are "acquaintances." These are the "friends and family" that HCI says kill each other -- DEFINITELY NOT LIKE THE FRIENDS AND FAMILY YOU AND I HAVE.

Almost all the "relatives" killed each year are the very same men, well-known to the police, that have been brutalizing their wives, girlfriends, and children for years -- those men are killed in self-defense. Would it be more "politically correct" if those women or children were killed by their abusers?

Law professor Don Kates has written, "Far from being ordinary, otherwise law-abiding citizens, those who commit murders, as every study of homicide shows, are real criminals with long histories of violence against the people around them...Indicative of this are FBI statistics showing that [b]74.7% of persons arrested for murder had been arrested previously for a violent felony or burglary..."

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/suter-fa.html

Also, don't confuse correlation with causation. It's wise not to have such a tunnel vision about guns and rule everything else out as a contribution to crime like this joke of a study did. South Africa, a third word s**thole, has a high rate of femicide-suicide committed with guns so therefore gun control would've stopped 91.5% of the deaths by stopping abusive a**holes, who usually have records and criminal connections, from obtaining guns :roll:. What a conclusion to jump to, yeah forget about everything else that might be correlated with violent crime like a lack of money and education.

Quote:
CAUSE AND EFFECT
Most statistical methods and studies are unable to prove that one thing is a cause of another. The methods are usually only able to demonstrate that one thing correlates with another or with absense of the other. That is, a properly done statistical study might show that one thing exists along with the other, but cannot prove that one of the things causes the other. So, a study showing that higher rates of gun ownership rates tend to exist alongside lower violent crime rates would not prove that higher gun ownership rates cause lower violent crime rates. Such a result would only suggest that higher gun ownership rates might cause reduced violent crime rates.

Given that a study showed a correlation between two things "a" and "b," it would be necessary to consider the possibility that: "a" might be the cause of "b"; "b" might be the cause of "a"; each might be partially the cause of the other; and that both might be partially or wholly caused by some other, maybe unknown, factor(s).

People are tempted to eliminate some of the competing alternative explanations based on logic. However, doing so demands a perfect understanding of the relationships between the factors being evaluated. In other words, the "logic" must be correct. Relying on logic to eliminate competing explanations typically results in erroneous interpretation of study results, especially if the process is being attempted by someone who knows little about the topic (like gun controllers who have never owned a gun deciding about gun matters impacting crime, violence, accidents, etc.). A study that finds that there is a high gun ownership rate in a time and place where there is a high murder rate, for example, might have such findings in part because a high murder rate causes people to acquire guns to protect themselves, their families and their neighbors. It is naive or dishonest to claim on the basis of such results that high gun ownership causes high murder rates.

There are some facts that can support the idea that one thing is the cause of another, as opposed to the reverse or both of them being caused by something else altogether. One thing that is essential is a logical explanation (of the cause-and-effect relationship) consistent with known facts and other observations, and that has withstood the scrutiny of numerous people knowledgable of the field. That is, one must ask how one thing could possibly cause the other.

Another fact that suggests that one factor is the cause of the other is that the second factor does not ever change until introduction or forced change of the first. If violent crime rates in a state start dropping faster after a right-to-carry law goes into effect in that state, after accounting for any other changes that went into effect at the same time, this would be very strong indication that the right-to-carry law causes crime reduction. On the other hand, a Washington, DC crime rate reduction trend that starts two years before a firearm ban in Washington, DC pretty much proves that the crime rate reduction was not caused by the ban.

Another fact that can suggest that one thing is a cause of others is that the thing was included in the analysis as a result of people suggesting for some theoretical reason that it might be the cause of factors that were found to be correlated in earlier analyses, and was found to have a higher correlation with the other factors than was observed between the other factors themselves. Higher correlations are found between causes and effects than between multiple things that share the same cause.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/stats.html

Notice the part that says "a high murder rate causes people to acquire guns to protect themselves, their families and their neighbors. It is naive or dishonest to claim on the basis of such results that high gun ownership causes high murder rates.". That pretty much addresses #2. As for #3, since when was I against background checks?



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04 Aug 2012, 11:15 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
I can see why you need exceptions to the law. My maternal grandfather is the only person I know who owns a gun (though actually I'm not sure he owns it any more). He was a farmer and needed a gun to shoot any animals that got in accidents and were otherwise going to die slow, painful deaths. If you lived in a neighbourhood with a rabid dog problem, then you should be allowed to own a gun to shoot the dogs. A blanket ban seems almost as stupid as the near blanket allowance of guns that is currently in the US- sometimes a gun really is necessary. However, those should be exceptions, rather than the rule. Think of it like with knives- most people aren't allowed to carry a sharp knife even for protection or they'll go to prison, but we allow people to carry knives visibly if they need to cut ropes, or if they are high up in the Sikh faith.


Tell that to the guy being attacked by 3 people and he can't fight them off, or the 100lb girl being raped by the 200lb man. Criminals don't give a s**t about the law. They will carry guns, prison is just part of life for them. If they can't get guns, they'll use other tools to commit crimes.

Expect when law abiding citizens might have guns. They might think twice. Does that 100lb girl have a gun in her purse? Could that man shoot me and my friends before we could jump him? Am I going to get the death penalty if he shoots my friend (felony murder)?

And actually, most states allow you to carry knives. My state has a 2.5inch blade limit.



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04 Aug 2012, 11:17 pm

Quote:
Notice the part that says "a high murder rate causes people to acquire guns to protect themselves, their families and their neighbors. It is naive or dishonest to claim on the basis of such results that high gun ownership causes high murder rates.". That pretty much addresses #2. As for #3, since when was I against background checks?


The other thing you have to control for is that murder is not the only crime. Take a look at all part 1 (violent) crimes. Legal gun ownership doesn't just prevent killing, it prevents robberies, rapes, etc.

And of course, some anti-2nd amendment activities will include justifiable homicide int he murder statistics.



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04 Aug 2012, 11:41 pm

LKL wrote:
number 3:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22729164
Quote:
Legal status and source of offenders' firearms in states with the least stringent criteria for gun ownership.
Vittes KA, Vernick JS, Webster DW.
SourceCenter for Gun Policy and Research, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, Maryland, USA.

Abstract
BackgroundGun possession by high-risk individuals presents a serious threat to public safety. U.S. federal law establishes minimum criteria for legal purchase and possession of firearms; many states have laws disqualifying additional categories for illegal possession.
Methods
We used data from a national survey of state prison inmates to calculate: 1) the proportion of offenders, incarcerated for crimes committed with firearms in 13 states with the least restrictive firearm purchase and possession laws, who would have been prohibited if their states had stricter gun laws; and 2) the source of gun acquisition for offenders who were and were not legally permitted to purchase and possess firearms.
Results
Nearly three of ten gun offenders (73 of 253 or 28.9%) were legal gun possessors but would have been prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms when committing their most recent offense if their states had stricter prohibitions. Offenders who were already prohibited under current law acquired their gun from a licensed dealer, where a background check is required, five times less often than offenders who were not prohibited (3.9% vs. 19.9%; χ(2)=13.31; p≤0.001). Nearly all (96.1%) offenders who were legally prohibited, acquired their gun from a supplier not required to conduct a background check.
Conclusions
Stricter gun ownership laws would have made firearm possession illegal for many state prison inmates who used a gun to commit a crime. Requiring all gun sales to be subject to a background check would make it more difficult for these offenders to obtain guns.

bolding mine.
stricter background checks in areas that have lax background checks could prevent some gun violence from happening.

More of them would just have their babymamma make the purchase for them. That's what a lot of them do already and registration doesn't slow it down.


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05 Aug 2012, 12:36 am

John_Browning wrote:
LKL wrote:
number 3:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22729164
Quote:
Legal status and source of offenders' firearms in states with the least stringent criteria for gun ownership.
Vittes KA, Vernick JS, Webster DW.
SourceCenter for Gun Policy and Research, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, Maryland, USA.

Abstract
BackgroundGun possession by high-risk individuals presents a serious threat to public safety. U.S. federal law establishes minimum criteria for legal purchase and possession of firearms; many states have laws disqualifying additional categories for illegal possession.
Methods
We used data from a national survey of state prison inmates to calculate: 1) the proportion of offenders, incarcerated for crimes committed with firearms in 13 states with the least restrictive firearm purchase and possession laws, who would have been prohibited if their states had stricter gun laws; and 2) the source of gun acquisition for offenders who were and were not legally permitted to purchase and possess firearms.
Results
Nearly three of ten gun offenders (73 of 253 or 28.9%) were legal gun possessors but would have been prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms when committing their most recent offense if their states had stricter prohibitions. Offenders who were already prohibited under current law acquired their gun from a licensed dealer, where a background check is required, five times less often than offenders who were not prohibited (3.9% vs. 19.9%; χ(2)=13.31; p≤0.001). Nearly all (96.1%) offenders who were legally prohibited, acquired their gun from a supplier not required to conduct a background check.
Conclusions
Stricter gun ownership laws would have made firearm possession illegal for many state prison inmates who used a gun to commit a crime. Requiring all gun sales to be subject to a background check would make it more difficult for these offenders to obtain guns.

bolding mine.
stricter background checks in areas that have lax background checks could prevent some gun violence from happening.

More of them would just have their babymamma make the purchase for them. That's what a lot of them do already and registration doesn't slow it down.


Obviously, but many people don't have children, and not every mother or significant other, is free of a felony or misdemeanor domestic violence, so if stricter background checks were feasible, it could only result in less gun related violence, overall.



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05 Aug 2012, 1:08 am

aghogday wrote:
Obviously, but many people don't have children, and not every mother or significant other, is free of a felony or misdemeanor domestic violence, so if stricter background checks were feasible, it could only result in less gun related violence, overall.

But they are not feasible. In fact, the courts have recently ruled against stricter standards and even a lifetime ban for domestic violence may eventually be on it's way out in a few years.


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