look at what these famous non muslims say about muhammad

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Indeed. I'm waiting for the time when salad will eventually see the same. At least I hope.

So you consider a girl old enough for sex if she is starting puberty, not if she is actually fully developed.

And you consider a nine year old girl fully developed?!

Have you seen many nine year old girls that are fully developed?

This is a sick discussion and I can't believe I'm having it.

If I tried to sleep with a nine year old because I considered her to "reach the age of puberty and maturity", I would spend most of the rest of my life in jail.

i honestly have a very minuscule knowledge regarding sex, puberty etc. i never really learned about this, so this discussion is hard for me. I advise you to watch fakir naik, yasir qadhi and other scholars' inputs on this simply because i don't have an answer. I'm actually skeptical bout this and am racing back and forth from WP to online sources to answer your questions, leaving me unable to give the best answer. i ask you go on youtube and type in muhammads marriage to aisha yasir qhadi and watch, or zakir naik on muhammads marriage to aisha. I'm exhausted at this point from all the racing back and forth and need some time to rest.

peace

No, I don't. I don't believe that's what's meant by that hadith. Look at it this way, say Israel declares war on some country, this being a genuine act of aggression and not just self-defense. The soldiers of that country would then clearly be attempting to kill Jews, is this automatically identical to the Holocaust? Would that be genocide? I don't think it would ever be right to kill anyone purely on account of their religion. If someone acted in a way that made killing them justifiable, in the cause of their religion, that's not the same thing.

Thanks, Tequila! I don't take your arguments personally, actually I think you're a pretty open-minded and reasonable guy.

What country is that? Do you consider the founding of Israel and its defensive wars to be aggression? (I'm aware of the Islamic context of seeing all Islamic expansions as defensive, and all other military actions as others as aggressive.)

And why would a hadith that could so clearly be misinterpreted malignantly be in there in the first place? There are, erm, an awful lot of Islamic treatises that are regularly interpreted in this way, wouldn't you say? I'm sure you're aware of some of them, and I'm sure you're aware (as a decent human being) how these people use them to live in a way that would never be tolerated by non-Muslims living in a Western country.

The Quran or Hadiths or any other Islamic texts doesn't mention Israel in a modern sense because Israel in a modern sense never existed. It doesn't mention Palestine. Palestine, of course, isn't talked about. It just mentions Jews. The hadith, to my mind, is crystal clear in what it means. It couldn't be more clear. A Jew is hiding behind stones and trees. The trees betray the Jew and tell the Muslim to kill that Jew. Nothing in there about defence, or attack, or anything. It's just about Jews. And then there is the bit about Jews being serious enemies of Allah, and of them being the descendants of apes and pigs and bloodsuckers - all regularly repeated in Arab media. I'd love to believe you, Cei - and I would guess you probably know this already.

Given the context in which organisations like Hamas use the hadith (if you read their Charter, it reads like something that Hitler would have approved of), I think it's fairly clear what is meant. Hamas and their kind don't just have a problem with Israel and I can post endless videos to bear this out. By the way, it's probably not a coincidence that I'd rather live in Israel as a Muslim than as most Muslim countries in that part of the world as a Muslim.

I shall use Occam's Razor with this one, Cei. (In a very dark way, I'm starting to find a sort of very bleak humour in the way that passages of the Islamic texts are written. As a non-Muslim, it reads like Allah commands that women be treated like a sub-human species (or whatever the commandment is), but it's alright, because Allah is most forgiving, most merciful. Outside the confines of religion, to me the last part reads as a bit like a very blatant spit in the face and the sheer effrontery of it makes me chuckle.)

Pleased to hear that you don't think I'm some sort of beered-up, mosque-trashing monster with EDL tattoos. (For what it's worth, the man who stuck a pig's head outside a mosque here should go to jail for it - though I rather like the idea of some of the parishioners taking the pig's head and serving it up at the local takeaway to the man who put it there, and then give him a piece of their mind.)

Admirers of the Prophet like to sing: "Thank Goodness, for little girls..."

ruveyn

The discussion is indeed sick and vile, but I have to give salad a break. He's only 15 years old and thus doesn't have full notion of what pedophilia is. I remember when I was 16 I was looking at a porn site (bear with me, this is going somewhere) that had a button that maked appear a random porn site each time you clicked a button. And one of the times the site had pictures of naked children. I remember thinking that that was odd. How can someone be into that sort of thing? So I just clicked again on the button and a new site of regular porn apeared. There was not yet a developed moral judgement of what I saw. To me it was just weird. So if I, when I was a year older than salad, didn't have a notion of how severely disturbing pedophilia is, he probably doesn't have it either.

PS: When I realised later that I knew a site that could show child pornography and how serious that was I denounced the site to the police.

about the killing of Jews, do you know what that's referring to? it's referring to the Jews in the Anti Christs's army who will fight against Jesus and his army. it's not talking about killing jews randomly, it's talking about killing the Anti Christ's soldiers. here's how the story goes. when Jesus returns he will lead the Muslims in prayer. the anti christ will have his army ready to attack. after the Muslims are done praying Jesus will lead them to the Anti Christ for one final battle. there jesus will slay the Anti Christ and the rest of his army. that's what it's referring to. it's not my fault most of his soldiers will be Jewish. if the Anti Christ's soldiers were arabs then we'd kill them. it doesn't matter what the race or religion is, in the end whoever will be fighting with the Anti Christ will ultimately be destroyed in the end.

That is interesting. The 7 narrations from the two Sahihs commanding Muslims to kill the Jews do not mention Jesus or the Anti-Christ at all.

Do you have any Qur'anic verses or authentic Hadith to validate this interpretation? Ones that do not violate the most authoritative of all hadith, this mutawatir ahadith?:

"The Prophet said, "Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire." (Bukhari, 1:3:106 (Narrated by Ali) - and at least 73 other companions)

They can be found in third world countries. For some reason they develop earlier there.

ruveyn

Can you provide a link that tries to prove that? I've never seen a 9 year old fully developed woman! I know that in China some girls mature sooner because of hormones in milk, for example. But not even then it's fully grown. Only started puberty at around 9 years old, about only 2 years earlier than western girls.

the hadith was mentioned in context with the story of the Anti Christ. look it up.

They also have lousy civil records (or none at all) in the third world. It's not unusual to pass off girls as younger than they are to make them more attractive for a potential husband. But when examined medically, these seemingly young 'mature' girls are much older than the parents claim that they are.

It's physically impossible to fully mature at age 9. It's true that some girls have their first menstruation as early as 8 or 9, but a first menstruation and some breast development, hip fat and pubic hair isn't full womanhood.

That ignorance and your blind willingness to let others do your thinking for you is what dooms those who follow the same religion you do into remaining in the dark ages. Suffering in poverty and dying for the minute wealthy elite that puppet you with the opium of religion.

There's a reason why Europe became the dominant power of the planet. Think about that for a moment. In the times when Europe had lost all its knowledge it was the muslim world that held all the knowledge, the scholars and the trade routes with the asian and african nations... yet in just a couple of centuries Europe not only rebuilt, regained and developed an impressive amount of technological breakthroughs but also expanded and left the muslim world behind.

Want to know why? Renaissance. Martin Luther. The breaking of the Church's power and the people starting to think for themselves and break free of the bondage of religion.

Muslims have never undergone this self-liberation (no other can do it for you). Your religious leaders and political leaders are one and the same. You have no centralized religious authority which makes it difficult to challenge their authority....its the same way an underground/terrorist/resistance/5th column cell system operates.

I'm sorry if this is harsh but I cannot have any sympathy concerning your ignorance. You have the internet. USE IT. LEARN. THINK for yourself.

Last edited by Dantac on 05 Feb 2013, 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

And lets not forget the main reason of the crime that is pedophilia: the mental age of the victim. There are no mentaly fully matured people at age 9.

Source?