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monty
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15 Aug 2008, 12:06 pm

TimT wrote:
greenblue wrote:

The scientific method dismisses the supernatural as an assumption so it is no wonder that it can't find evidence of the supernatural. An assumption is a foundation that has no proof. Don't use the assumption AS proof.


Actually, there have been hundreds of experiments where the researcher was open to telekinesis, mind reading, seeing into the future, and other supernatural phenomena. The studies were set up with an assumption that such things might be possible, and time after time it was found that the person who claimed supernatural powers did no better than a chance. So science has rejected the supernatural as a conclusion, not as an assumption. The average scientist will discount such ideas on a day to day basis, but if someone came forward to be tested, the scientist would set aside that conviction to see the evidence, which would be evaluated objectively.



Haliphron
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15 Aug 2008, 1:04 pm

greenblue wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What would convince me of the existance of Angels and/or Demons would be to meet one, face-to-face. Nothing less will suffice.

But you could die if that happens, and then, no evidence would exist rather than a mysterious heart attack :P

On the other hand, being a lot less drastic, you would have to proof that what you saw was real and that it wasn't an illusion, hallucinations, dream or even false memory implants.


Thats a total Cop-Out! You can claim the existance of ANTYHING by asserting that the evidence for it can only be found once you die. That is the essence of non-fasifiability :wink: .



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15 Aug 2008, 1:06 pm

patternist wrote:
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he's a devil's advocate. if you observe the world around you and study it, you find no evidence of what he claims. however, he plays the devil's advocate against evidence and fact. the "well, what if god is real".


I think faith is beyond fact and evidence. After years of being a hard-and-fast seeing-is-believing-type, I realized that this is essentially bad for my emotions and well-being. There are many things that are true, if you believe them to be. I retract my former statement about devil's advocacy. You would have to intend to be a devils advocate to be one.




"people say, to see is to believe
then the just believe in that they can percieve
what they see is not the total view
falls between......the men and you"



-The Church(tear it all away)



Fnord
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15 Aug 2008, 1:08 pm

patternist wrote:
I think faith is beyond fact and evidence. After years of being a hard-and-fast seeing-is-believing-type, I realized that this is essentially bad for my emotions and well-being. There are many things that are true, if you believe them to be.

Evidence, Please?


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slowmutant
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15 Aug 2008, 1:32 pm

The evidence, in this case, is intangible. You can't quantify a spiritual awakening. Fnord, you're plenty smart enough to know that. All proof is not phsyical; all evidence is not concrete.



skafather84
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15 Aug 2008, 2:29 pm

monty wrote:
TimT wrote:
The scientific method dismisses the supernatural as an assumption so it is no wonder that it can't find evidence of the supernatural. An assumption is a foundation that has no proof. Don't use the assumption AS proof.


Actually, there have been hundreds of experiments where the researcher was open to telekinesis, mind reading, seeing into the future, and other supernatural phenomena. The studies were set up with an assumption that such things might be possible, and time after time it was found that the person who claimed supernatural powers did no better than a chance. So science has rejected the supernatural as a conclusion, not as an assumption. The average scientist will discount such ideas on a day to day basis, but if someone came forward to be tested, the scientist would set aside that conviction to see the evidence, which would be evaluated objectively.



see: the james randi educational foundation's million dollar challenge.



skafather84
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15 Aug 2008, 2:31 pm

slowmutant wrote:
All proof is not phsyical;



care to back up this statement?



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15 Aug 2008, 2:41 pm

skafather84 wrote:
see: the james randi educational foundation's million dollar challenge.

(This sentence is a link to James Randi's Million-Dollar Challenge.)

The front page of James Randi's Million-Dollar Challenge reads, in part:

Quote:
"At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. ... To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests."

James Randi provided some advice for my "What's In The Box?" challenge, although I do not have a one-million dollar prize attached to it.


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Fnord
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15 Aug 2008, 2:48 pm

slowmutant wrote:
The evidence, in this case, is intangible. You can't quantify a spiritual awakening. Fnord, you're plenty smart enough to know that. All proof is not phsyical; all evidence is not concrete.

All real evidence is either material or can be physically demonstrated.

Impressions, feelings, rumors, anecdotes, hearsay, myths, fantasies, and 'Spiritual Awakenings' are all intangible and immaterial, and are thus rendered irrelevant. And I am am smart enough to know that.

In other words: If it's intangible, then it's not evidence.


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TimT
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15 Aug 2008, 3:01 pm

skafather84 wrote:
monty wrote:
TimT wrote:
The scientific method dismisses the supernatural as an assumption so it is no wonder that it can't find evidence of the supernatural. An assumption is a foundation that has no proof. Don't use the assumption AS proof.

Actually, there have been hundreds of experiments where the researcher was open to telekinesis, mind reading, seeing into the future, and other supernatural phenomena. The studies were set up with an assumption that such things might be possible, and time after time it was found that the person who claimed supernatural powers did no better than a chance. So science has rejected the supernatural as a conclusion, not as an assumption. The average scientist will discount such ideas on a day to day basis, but if someone came forward to be tested, the scientist would set aside that conviction to see the evidence, which would be evaluated objectively.

see: the james randi educational foundation's million dollar challenge.

There is one major exception. At the end of the qualifications for the challenge Randi excludes Christianity because we depend upon someone outside of ourselves -- the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, it would be an easy million.



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15 Aug 2008, 3:43 pm

TimT wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
monty wrote:
TimT wrote:
The scientific method dismisses the supernatural as an assumption so it is no wonder that it can't find evidence of the supernatural. An assumption is a foundation that has no proof. Don't use the assumption AS proof.

Actually, there have been hundreds of experiments where the researcher was open to telekinesis, mind reading, seeing into the future, and other supernatural phenomena. The studies were set up with an assumption that such things might be possible, and time after time it was found that the person who claimed supernatural powers did no better than a chance. So science has rejected the supernatural as a conclusion, not as an assumption. The average scientist will discount such ideas on a day to day basis, but if someone came forward to be tested, the scientist would set aside that conviction to see the evidence, which would be evaluated objectively.

see: the james randi educational foundation's million dollar challenge.

There is one major exception. At the end of the qualifications for the challenge Randi excludes Christianity because we depend upon someone outside of ourselves -- the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, it would be an easy million.


back up your claims, charlatan.



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15 Aug 2008, 4:11 pm

TimT wrote:
There is one major exception. At the end of the qualifications for the challenge Randi excludes Christianity because we depend upon someone outside of ourselves -- the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, it would be an easy million.

Wrong! To quote directly from James Randi's website:

Quote:
"2.5 Why can’t I submit a religious or spiritual claim?

Because they are, for the most part, untestable. For example, you can look at a series of events – say surviving an automobile crash, surviving a plane crash, surviving a near-drowning and say “This was the hand of God,” but the point of the Challenge isn’t to give anecdotal evidence. It is to give something testable. Most religious people believe it’s impossible to test God. We’re pretty sure they’re right, though perhaps for different reasons."

This sentence links to the page where the above quote appears.


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greenblue
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15 Aug 2008, 4:22 pm

TimT wrote:
greenblue wrote:
Well, yes, we can see that the Catholic Church and other branch of Christianity had adapted to modern times and accepted science, especially the Catholic Church, although there are some fundamentalists that, still, they reject modern medicine over prayer.

And, well, one of the reasons a support secularism over crazy stuff.
Most Christians today accept healing prayer and medicine as working together. The Humanists dig up the extraordinary to ridicule the norm. And secularists 'buy' it because it fits into their world view.

The scientific method dismisses the supernatural as an assumption so it is no wonder that it can't find evidence of the supernatural. An assumption is a foundation that has no proof. Don't use the assumption AS proof.

The supernatural is usually the assumption made when there is no known explanation and knowledge for a certain phenomena, and the uncertainty have had direct people to alternative explanations such as paranormal activity, the scientific method dismisses things that cannot be testable, those that cannot be testable cannot be considered factual under scientific grounds.


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skafather84
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15 Aug 2008, 5:13 pm

scientific method and its exploration of the supernatural.

one thing can't be in two places at the same time? sounds supernatural, right? well the scientific method has observed it.

The Theory: The Copenhagen Interpretation

The Crazy Part: The part where the furniture in your house behaves differently when you’re not around.

What It Says: Besides sounding like the subtitle of The Da Vinci Code II, The Copenhagen Interpretation is probably the most widely accepted explanation for the observations made through quantum mechanics. It came about in part to explain the infamous “Double Slit Experiment,” which is the one your physics professor probably made you do. The Double Slit Experiment shows that an electron, fired at a wall with two slits in it, will sometimes go through sometimes go through one, sometimes through the other, and sometimes it will go through both slits simultaneously (meaning, a single thing will be in two places at once). In short, it goes batshit f*****g insane. The twist is, if you try and observe the electron at the moment it passes through the slits—you know, to figure out what the hell is wrong with it—the electron goes back to behaving like a normal electron, and innocently shoots through one of the slits while giving you, and reality, the finger.

So What Does This Do For Me? The Copenhagen Interpretation is the result of a lot of smart people trying to figure out what the f**k was going on with these damn electrons. What they came up with is that all particles exist as waves of probability. From the observer’s perspective, there’s only a certain chance that a given electron will go through the left slit or right slit. When you don’t watch, it remains a cloud of probability and sort of does a little of everything. When you watch, the act of observing it somehow causes the cloud to pick a side. So the next time you observe a particle, be warned: they know you’re watching, and as soon as you stop, they’re going to start a party.

Wait, It Gets Worse: If you apply the Copenhagen Interpretation to bigger objects, it gets even weirder. The infamous Schrodinger’s Cat thought experiment, the one your physics professor probably got fired for doing, said that if you put a cat in a box and press a button that has a fifty percent chance of filling the box with poison gas, then until you go and look in the box, the cat exists as a cat-cloud which is simultaneously both alive and dead. And there’s more: if everything exists as a probability wave, then that means that technically, anything possible could happen at any time. There’s nothing stopping a big floppy dick from sprouting out of your forehead right now; it’s just highly unlikely. You feel lucky, punk?
----------------------------------

ripped from an old cracked top 5 article but the ideas and the facts remain: there's plenty of "supernatural" things being tested and observed and eventually figured out and explained.



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15 Aug 2008, 5:36 pm

The wave nature of quantum particles is heavily dependent upon probability, thus the apparent simultaneity of location. What applies at the quantum level does not apply at the ordinary level (except in lasers and other photoelectric effects).

What the Heisenburg Uncertainty principle supposes is that a quantum particle will inhabit all possible states of its existance until it is observed, and the act of observation is what determines which state of existance the particle will take.

The Schrodinger's Cat Thought Experiment was developed to illustrate this point, not to kill cats.

What we have here is the wilful conflation of the magnitudes of scale. To say that the properties of a single electron could be applied to a human, is to imply that the properties of a single human could be applied to the observable universe. The scale of an electron to a human is about the same as a single human to the volume of the observable universe.

Sorta like saying that there must be a bigger, more complex being than humans (e.g, "God") because humans are so much bigger and more complex than a single-celled aomeba. It just does not follow.


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skafather84
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15 Aug 2008, 5:40 pm

Fnord wrote:
The wave nature of quantum particles is heavily dependent upon probability, thus the apparent simultaneity of location. What applies at the quantum level does not apply at the ordinary level (except in lasers and other photoelectric effects).

What the Heisenburg Uncertainty principle supposes is that a quantum particle will inhabit all possible states of its existance until it is observed, and the act of observation is what determines which state of existance the particle will take.

The Schrodinger's Cat Thought Experiment was developed to illustrate this point, not to kill cats.

What we have here is the wilful conflation of the magnitudes of scale. To say that the properties of a single electron could be applied to a human, is to imply that the properties of a single human could be applied to the observable universe. The scale of an electron to a human is about the same as a single human to the volume of the observable universe.

Sorta like saying that there must be a bigger, more complex being than humans (e.g, "God") because humans are so much bigger and more complex than a single-celled aomeba. It just does not follow.


my point wasn't to put weight behind the study but rather to illustrate that science is studying principles all the time that to most people would fit under the supernatural category and goes beyond most people's understanding and into the "god" realm of "i have no clue so let's worship the god of the gaps".