The absurdity of Christianity

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~nods~ I'm a physicist (and mathematician) so you are definitely tracking magz.

Let's consider 'time'...and space too, I suppose. It would be helpful to imagine or draw Cartesian coordinates....an x-axis and a y-axis. Here's how I see it: The x-axis represents time. Or, more precisely, time through space. Starting at (0,0) and heading to the right (positive numbers) is the future. Start at (0,0) and move to the left, we find the past. The point (0,0) then, would be Now. Without getting into the math because topology can be as confusing as talking to an NT, we can keep dividing units of time as we tend toward (0,0) from either direction, and that unit shall tend toward zero, but never really reach it. One second cut in half is a half second, half of that is a quarter of a second, etc. God, in my opinion, is at true (0,0) - a place beyond time, or a place that transcends time. Except I can't actually use the word 'place' because that implies 'matter' and matter would not exist either. Einstein proved that matter cannot exist where time does not exist.

So the short answer (for me) is that if you want to find God - be here NOW.

Beyond that, some of the challenges in talking about this is the assumptions people make that they are not even aware of. For instance, it would be difficult for me to even try and speak to the assertion presented many times in this thread, by many different people, that God 'thought'...or referring to God's 'imagination' as you did above. It is my belief, for many reasons, that God cannot be perceived. The word perception speaks to the ability to become aware of something through the senses - and the senses only work in the material world. Since there are six sense gates through which information can flow (seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, and thinking) and God exists on the y-axis, outside time and space - He, She, or It doesn't think. He, She, or It may know...but if so, they know without thought.

And you're STILL clinging to a false dilemma. There's no getting around that. The question is still unreasonable, though maybe you're inching closer to something reasonable.

Put another way: If I own something, say, a car, and the engine light comes on, most likely it's for an oil change. Fine, I'll change the oil. So the engine light comes on later and it turns out it's some computer glitch, then I get that fixed. Then the low oil light comes on and I discover there's oil leak on top of my engine, I get that repaired. And then I find that my particular car is prone to breaking tie rods--ok, fine, I'll replace the tie rods, but now I'm getting annoyed. And then one day I happen to be driving a long stretch of straight road and I need to turn off onto a different road, I'll likely have to brake. If I find my brakes are out and I can't stop, then I figure out a different way to stop the car. But I'm also going to worry about if I'd been going faster and on a curvy road going downhill, what would I have done if the brakes had failed, then? Repairs on my car are nickel-and-dimeing me to death as it is, now it's trying to kill me. I'm DONE. It's OVER. The car is going to the salvage yard. There's only so much patience I can reasonably be expected to have, and operating a vehicle that is a threat to my own life, much less the lives of other motorists potentially, that is unacceptable.

The car is broken. It can't be trusted, can't be repaired. Why not? Well...what's next? Sure, I could have the brakes fixed. That sounds sensible, yes, but now I'm just waiting for the next failure. What's next, cracked radiator? You have any idea how much a new radiator costs? What about the electrical system? Is the wiring next? Or what if another oil leak happens next to the one I just fixed and the car catches fire from residual heat after I park it one day? Or will there be another computer glitch and the car won't even run? The kinds of repairs I mentioned, parts and labor, add up and total more than what the car is worth--heck, for the sinkhole this thing is, I could just buy a new car.

Nobody is going to accuse me of being unreasonable when the car is a proven lemon. And if I hear similar stories from others with the same model and year, that just makes my decision that much easier.

If you can imagine owning a possession that shows itself not merely untrustworthy but entirely irredeemable, there's no moral question that you are within your rights to destroy it. Part it out. Junk it. Scrap it. Recycle it. Whatever, but it no longer has any meaningful existence as what it was created for.

What you are accusing God of is exactly that: disposing of HIS creation and HIS property in a manner you find unpleasant. If my car could talk and start that argument with me, I'd hum a happy tune while I pull the lever on the hydraulic press. It belongs to me, the title is in my name, I've made my decision, and no more good can come of this. Doesn't matter if my car doesn't like what I'm doing, but this relationship is severed forever. It's not up to us if we LIKE it. It doesn't matter, it's God's prerogative. It is no more reasonable to accuse God of murder than it is to accuse me of murdering my car after it has failed me for the last time.

You'll get no argument from me that God committed homicide by definition of what homicide is: killing a human being. Whether this happens individually or en masse is irrelevant. Murder is the unjustified killing of a person. Justifiable homicide is justified. If my car worked perfectly fine, I owned it, the title was in my name, and I decided to drive it off a cliff and buy a new one every week, I am justified in doing so by virtue of the car being mine to do with as I please. If God chooses to wipe all of humanity off the face of the earth and declines to give a reason or justification for it, God is justified in that we are his to do with as he likes without regard to how we feel about it. Nobody is going to tell me I can't buy a Bentley every week and drive it off a cliff if it's my money and my Bentley. It might not make sense to anyone else, but it doesn't have to make sense. My car, my choice. God made me, God holds the title, and if God wants to put a magnifying glass between me and the sun, there's not a thing I can do about it but thank him for time he allowed me to live. I'm certainly not going to give God a hard time for getting rid of people who have proven themselves worthless, immoral, irredeemable, and dangerous.

Your position is unreasonable because--well, false dilemma, obviously, among other things--of your false premise that your view of good and evil is somehow superior. No created thing can demonstrate superiority in any way to the being that created it.

Not such a good analogy though. A car doesn't have humanity and feelings. We might do that with a car, but not with a disobedient child or a pet dog that's slow to potty train... we would have infinitely more patience with a living thing, if we have any humanity at all.

^^ Very dangerous thinking.
Let's imagine, with this mindset common among people, a "prophet" emerges and says that it's justified to do <something evil, let's say some ethnic cleansing or nuking a whole nation> because the "prophet" is the voice of God and God's actions are always justified as he "owns" the humanity.

I think some of those old prophets were a bit off.They could have just told their followers , “ God said this is ours, now go kill everyone and take it!”
They could have been very charismatic like other cult leaders and used car salesmen and gotten their followers to commit all sorts of mayhem.
All in the name of God.
While God( if that being exists), is thinking, “ Look at those gullible fools, I didn’t say that.”

Last edited by Misslizard on 16 Jul 2021, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I know we aren't going to be in agreement on theology necessarily, but in regards to "where/when" God exists, I really, really, REALLY enjoyed reading your post.

I think God is definitely perceivable, but the divine sense not equally present in all people. It's not unusual that most people are sensory impaired. I'm extremely nearsighted--not legally blind, but I need glasses. Astigmatism ain't fun. Some people don't hear well. Also, there is a limit to the human ear's frequency response beyond which there are sounds too high or low to meaningfully perceive (though technically you can perceive upper range harmonics though the residual effect, but whatever). There are wavelengths of light we can't perceive. Taste, smell, and touch are things that will vary among people for different reasons--injury, disease, genetics, and so on. I believe somewhere in there is a sense of God's presence though perhaps it is either not as well developed as other senses, such as light or sound that is undetectable, or the sensory input from it is ascribed to other things. People who have better hearing might be accused of hallucinating when describing things that no one else can hear. Divine activity, which is quite real to those who perceive it, might sound like stories of the tooth fairy and Santa Claus to others who don't have the same grasp of reality.

^^^

---

Just Going By 'the Book' That You Say
Is the 'Inerrant Word of God' AKA Jesus

As of Course Incorrectly Interpreted

By Loss of Translations in Greek; Yet
Still Taken Literally Another Way;

Jesus Already Admits That We

Will Do Greater Works

Than Him AKA God

If YES We DO Believe AND DO

In What He Says Here Below...

Yawn... Considering He Never

Wrote A Word; It Was Kinda Simple to

Do More than 'Jesus', the Faux Idol God at Least...

Jesus Is Just Another Dude Who Went Out in the Desert

And Figured Out He Was Part of All of Nature; Common Experience...

Earth Worms

Don't Have

To Think to Do it...

Yet if They Go to the
Desert, They'll Dry Out And Die First...

Hopefully, 'Yeshua', Stayed Well Hydrated And Survived...

Anyway, Back to Great Fathers Versus Not So Great Fathers...
Anyway, Back to Great Teachers Versus No So Great Teachers...
Anyway, Back to Great Mentors, Overall Versus Not So Great Mentors

It is Every Truly Great Father, Teacher, Mentor, And Other True FRiEnD's

Greatest Wish That the One Who They Help Along Their Way in Life Achieves More
Than They Do With Great Communion of Joy in What They Are Able to Accomplish Greater In Life...

So, Considering Love Neither Requires Worship or Fears Criticism When Real; And Love Always

Forgives Unconditionally When True; No Ifs, Ands, Or Buts, i Stand Head And Shoulders Above

That Old Evil Old Testament God And Even A New Testament Version of Jesus Who Changes into
An Evil Forever Torturing Psychopath-Type, Sentencing Folks to Forever In Hell to Burn Up With No Relief...

This is Like Kindergarten;

All You Have to Do is

Be Human to Surpass

In Loving Virtue Real

Far Beyond

All These

Old And New
Testament God's

In What They Achieve

In Humane Potentials in Life...

In Other Words; Humans, At Core,

Are Greater At Love than the 'God Damned' Book, Literally,

Which Just Goes to Show How Malignant The Personalities

Were Who Wrote/Approved Those Truly Despicable Evil Parts of the Book...

Of Course, We Will Likely Never know Who the Ghost Authors Were...

Not Surprised,

They Wouldn't

Want Their Names

to Be Known Unless
They Just Were incapable

of Feeling Shame...

Yeah...

Per the

'TRuMP

MeMe',

Go Figure...
Yes; Multiply,
Divide, Subtract

Not Much of

Anything of

Nothing Of Love...

Left By The End of
That Overall 'Evil Book', Taken Literally...

John 14:12
New King James Version

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me,
the works that I do he will do also; and greater works
than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

Hmm, At Least in the Verse Above, 'The Jesus Dude' Seems Just Alright to me...

Just Got To Catch Him When He is not Doing the Bad Cop Routine Part Through The Very End...

---

But would that be within the nature and character of God? Biblical prophets were required to have confirmed prophecies. It would not be difficult to make a prophecy that could be confirmed if God really is talking to the prophet. God never called for ethnic cleansing in the OT, so it doesn't make sense that God would somehow backtrack and renege on his offer of grace to all people. The point is not that God WANTS to destroy his creation. The point is that creation is God's to destroy if he wants to.

I think that one major effect Jesus had on the world is that restoring grace and forgiveness to our faith has actually resulted in human being taking MORE responsibility for war and destruction. Hitler had near total devotion from every German and the whole nation was committed to the Aryan cause. It's not unlike Sodom whose evil was complete to the point God didn't see fit to spare anyone. If God had intervened in Germany directly as he had in Sodom, no one who had been alive in Germany at that time would have even survived. What would people have preferred knowing the end had come? To be completely wiped out by God, or for other human beings to occupy Germany, help rebuild, and resist the Soviets? The horror of nuclear war in Japan served to inform all Japanese people that they could not win the war, and was justified in that more people survived to rebuild Japan and end further cost in human lives to both sides. With the entire nation of Japan behind fighting the west to the last man, had God intervened in the same way, no one in Japan would have survived. I think that makes a bold statement to say that nuclear weapons are preferred to what God might dish out. It's almost like saying millions of soldiers would rather put their lives on the line to protect their nations' interest if that's what it takes to keep God from showing up, but at the same time no nation was ever denied its right to exist.

Of course...peace is always better.

^^^

---

And 'This' Is Why

So Many Young Folks

Are Leaving The Trademark Church

And NEVER EVER GOING BACK...

People Aren't

Forced

By

Swords Any Longer

Believing in a Psychopathic

God Who Takes Sides in Wars
And Slaughters Human Beings
Just Because He Decides He Wants to...

Holy Cr8p, This Sounds So Much Like Western Civilization...

Starting in the

Middle

East
Desert
of SCaRCiTieS
of Course in Tribal
Bloody Wars Fighting
to the Death for Subsistence,
Shelter, And Overall Territory of

Reproductive Rights...

Meanwhile American
Indians Were Likely

Living in Peace

Enough

With Abundant
Creeks of Teeming
Fish With Respect For
The Animals They Consumed
In A Circle of Life Still Spiraling IN Balance...

*Pass The Popcorn 'Eve', This is Truly So Amusing...

*Don't Worry
About
Washing

Any Dirty Clothes...
i've Found the Laundry Online..!..

---

There's no such thing as a perfect analogy. The point of an analogy is in the spirit of its intent, not its exact fit to a situation. Analogies are intended to help understand what something is LIKE, not frame an airtight argument.

But picking an object that doesn't have humanity or feelings was EXACTLY what I intended. There is no need to feel anything towards property regardless of whether that property possesses personality or not. Animals are property, too, and as such have no consistently enforceable rights (sorry, PETA). The only value they have is what we give them. If we see no purpose to keep them alive, we are under no obligation to. Hot lead is a highly effective tool to bringing a quick, merciful end to either a dying animal or a dangerous one. In terms of ownership, they have no real, objective status any more or less than a car or any other possession. God is under no obligation to regard us as anything more than a machine, a tool, or an inanimate object. Christians feel it is not our place to pretend that we mean any more to God than that. If God chooses to destroy us without shedding a single tear, how we feel about it isn't going to matter one way or another. If God chooses to die so we can have a second chance at reconciliation, God is powerful enough to do that.

And if God feels we are worth dying for, it would better for us to pause long enough for him tell us that. Oh, wait...

Well...there are two reasons people will leave the church. One: Christians and others authentically seeking God and genuine worship aren't going to be attracted to any church where they won't find either or both. Two: The church actually teaches Truth and calls people to repentance. If the world does not want to admit that it needs repentance, then the gospel message is unattractive by default. Smaller churches seem to have people who are stronger in faith per capita than larger churches. I attended a church for several years where more believers were leaving than coming over the last few years, even before the Biden Flu outbreak. I'll catch their services on YouTube sometime. They are a sad people.

Thanks AngelRho. Actually, if we were to strip away all the labels you and I use, I don't think we would be that far off theologically either. You contributions to this thread were what sucked me in.



I cut the rest of your statement off, not because I didn't think it was worthwhile, but because I want to separate that from this part. You may have noted above that I ended my last post with, "...[God] may know...but if so, [God] knows without thought." And that, in my opinion and experience, is how we can experience God.

I would say that I have seen God; but I did not use my eyes to do so. I have heard God...aw heck, you know the rest and where I am going. So, while it is possible that our theological beliefs may be far apart, I am not prepared to dismiss the idea that it is simply semantics - what you are calling 'perceiving', I'm calling 'knowing'. For me, to perceive is something I do. Knowing something without perceiving it through my senses is a gift - it is something 'God' does.

But just like any gift, I have to be open to receive it. While it may seem strange to quote the Buddha while discussing the Christian idea of God, the Buddha asked his disciples, "If someone gives you a gift and you do not accept it, to whom does the gift belong?" So again, in my opinion only, the gift is offered to all. Not everyone accepts and so the gift reverts back to the Giver.

Here's another related thought: Back in 2012, I was diagnosed with a rare, incurable, untreatable auto-immune disorder. Because it is so rare, it took years to diagnose - but six heart attacks later, they figured it out. Along with that, and the obvious heart disease, auto-immune disorders of this magnitude wreak havoc on other organs in your body. So chronic liver disease, chronic kidney disease (stage 3a), COPD with a blood oxygen level of 94%, neuropathy, high blood pressure, high cholesterol - and I fell into a medication resistant depression the likes of which I did not know existed. My days were spent in bed nineteen hours a day, on supplemental oxygen waiting to die. Then on November 7th, 2020 at 6:34 p.m. I became the proverbial burning bush.

I wasn't depressed any longer. I went from 19 hours a day in bed on oxygen to eight hours a day literally overnight. A week and a half later I arrived at my neurologists (who's treating me for the auto-immune) for my regular six month 15-minute appointment. After seven and a half hours and every test she knows has been run, she told me what I already knew. It could not be detected. The only problem she found was that my blood pressure was too low and she asked me to call my primary over that one. I had been on the maximum dose of blood pressure pills since I was a teenager and my blood pressure held steady at about 140/90 even still - except now it was 108/64. My doctor cut it in half immediately and had me call him back in two weeks after monitoring it daily. He cut it in half again, and two weeks later again. Then he had me come in for a full panel.

I was taken off all anti-depressant by December 1st. Was taken off all blood pressure meds by January 1st and my unmedicated blood pressure is now ~110/70. There is no evidence of liver disease. There is no longer any evidence of kidney disease. My blood oxygen level has been tested eight times since November; it's been 99% each time. My cholesterol is perfect. Oddly too, though I've a background in math and physics and was voted by my graduating class as 'Least likely to ever use the right half of his brain' (okay, just kidding with that one but yeah...no artistic talent or desire), and suddenly I walked into an art store for the first time in my life, and I'm painting...and I'm teaching myself the violin and...

I did not perceive God, just like I wouldn't see the wind while standing in the middle of a hurricane - but I know. So, perhaps it's just semantics, perhaps it's actually theological differences of opinion - either way, in every way that matters, you're a brother of mine.

Odd that there's no mention in scripture of these supposed pre-human spirits pushing God around though. In fact I can't find any reference to it anywhere else but here, which is a shame, because it would be nice to have a clear explanation of how it's supposed to have worked. All we seem to have is an idea that time wasn't quite the same thing at the beginning of the universe. Nothing about how that would make it all our fault if we turned out not to be quite what the deity wanted to see.

It's a good way of reconciling certain ideas and it's one I quite like myself. Once you've gotten over the silly atheist caricatures of God as torturer-in-chief, you still have to reconcile the spiritual danger of corporeal life with a well meaning God. If it's not forced on us, which would raise questions... perhaps instead we make a choice... which necessitates the possibility of an antelife.

Don't blame us. We didn't write the Bible. If I was God I'd be suing Moses for libel.

Hey that's not in the Bible, is it? I guess it wasn't enough to include.

That reminds me. There was some church abuse case. Years later when it became public, the clergy started talking about the importance of forgiveness. How convenient.