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16 Dec 2009, 9:15 pm

Sand wrote:
I appreciate that there are difficulties. But there are also great rewards.
If, then often only after one has been though hell and often only after ons has died disappointed. "Great rewards" which are only realized after dead rarely give a strong enough incentive to overcome very real and current difficulties.
Sand wrote:
The theory of continental drift took a long time to be accepted but real evidence existed and it made other things clear.
Not everyone saw it that way initially. Alfred Wegener died in 1930? Even in 1943 George Gaylord Simpson (a major participant in the modern evolutionary synthesis) still attacked his idea and solely based on his authority did it take at least a decade longer (until 1950s and 1960s) before a new generation of scientist accepted the theory of continental drift.
Sand wrote:
The concept of life as an artificial construct has nothing like the evidence needed to have serious consideration.
The basic operator of the primary argument is the same: Observed similarity.

That the continents seem to fit together

That technological and living systems look similar (and both unlike what is generally generated by strictly natural processes)

Sand wrote:
The proposal that nothing else fits (to your viewpoint) is insufficient.
I do not deny that. Given what I presented it is at best implausible, but not necessarily impossible. Still, it warrants additional research. Maybe we can find a mathematical proof that it is impossible?



Last edited by Meta on 16 Dec 2009, 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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16 Dec 2009, 9:21 pm

Sand wrote:
One other general point. When scientific research reveals something more or less revolutionary it makes the universe a bit less mysterious. The introduction of alien intellect as a major force in the operation of the universe, if anything, makes the universe vastly more mysterious.
Counter example: If anything quantum mechanics has (at least initially) made the universe vastly more mysterious: Spooky action at a distance? Results of experiments which depend on whether we measure of don't measure something? Unobservable, untestable, multiple universe?



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16 Dec 2009, 9:26 pm

Meta wrote:
In general strictly natural processes/forces don't do things which are non-trivial on a macroscopic level.

So in your view my father's fatal cancer could not have occured via strictly natural processes/forces or was trivial at a macroscopic level? That's odd because cancer seems like a natural process to me and neither the horrific illness nor untimely death of my father seems trivial at the macroscopic level to me, nor did it seem so to him or anyone who cared for him. We all considered it a distinctly non-trivial chain of events actually.



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16 Dec 2009, 9:39 pm

pandd wrote:
Meta wrote:
In general strictly natural processes/forces don't do things which are non-trivial on a macroscopic level.

So in your view my father's fatal cancer could not have occured via strictly natural processes/forces or was trivial at a macroscopic level? That's odd because cancer seems like a natural process to me and neither the horrific illness nor untimely death of my father seems trivial at the macroscopic level to me, nor did it seem so to him or anyone who cared for him. We all considered a distinctly non-trivial chain of events actually.
Mmm, some tricky words detected.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

I don't want to seem rude, but I seem to have a distinct difficulty with understanding emotions? I often don't respond appropriate. You may want to restrict your argument to purely objective observations, not subjective interpretations of these.

Since cancer requires life I would speculate that its non-trivial on the microscopic level; While it is consistent with natural forces it's not derived, nor derivable from these alone.



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16 Dec 2009, 9:54 pm

Meta wrote:
Sand wrote:
One other general point. When scientific research reveals something more or less revolutionary it makes the universe a bit less mysterious. The introduction of alien intellect as a major force in the operation of the universe, if anything, makes the universe vastly more mysterious.
Counter example: If anything quantum mechanics has (at least initially) made the universe vastly more mysterious: Spooky action at a distance? Results of experiments which depend on whether we measure of don't measure something? Unobservable, untestable, multiple universe?


No doubt quantum mechanics revealed a side to the universe which has almost no appeal to what is termed common sense. But the rewards of understanding quantum effects have led to extraordinary advances in many diverse fields. Positing an unknown and probably unknowable interference in what is now accepted as natural forces merely removes from conceptual cognizance the capability of understanding how natural forces might possibly have resulted in the world we know today. Cosmic researchers have discovered pre-organic molecules floating freely amongst the stars and a recent discovery has found indication of life substances from chemicals found in early Earth history. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 121451.htm



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17 Dec 2009, 2:11 am

Meta wrote:
Mmm, some tricky words detected.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

I don't want to seem rude, but I seem to have a distinct difficulty with understanding emotions? I often don't respond appropriate.

You should not worry yourself on my account, inappropriateness would be relatively trivial, although I do not mean to imply necessarily generated without intelligent design.
Quote:
You may want to restrict your argument to purely objective observations, not subjective interpretations of these.

It's not a particularly subjective argument, nor is it particularly lacking in objectivity.

The difference between life and non-life is not trivial, nor is the generation of life from life. The transition from life to non-life, a non trivial thing, is observed to be caused by natural processes, the process of the generation of life from life is also observed to be caused by natural processes. These are non-trivial.

So far as I can tell, the nuclear fusion processes within our solar system's sun are natural processes and assuredly non trivial at the macro-scopic level.

The non-trivial at the macro scropic level stuff, by and large appears to me to have natural causes.
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Since cancer requires life I would speculate that its non-trivial on the microscopic level; While it is consistent with natural forces it's not derived, nor derivable from these alone.

The sun does not require life...



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17 Dec 2009, 2:26 am

From Dr Sarfati's testimony, http://creation.com/now-a-creationist-jonathan-sarfati , an excerpt pertaining to abiogenesis,

Jonathan Sarfati, PhD Physical Chemistry wrote:
Real chemistry vs chemical evolution

In my organic chemistry classes, the real chemistry learned there seemed to pose enormous problems for theories of the origin of life from non-living chemicals (chemical evolution or abiogenesis). And if evolution couldn’t start in the first place, then it couldn’t have got going. It would be like a race with all runners dead on the starting blocks.

For example, we studied a type of reaction vital for life and chemical industry called condensation polymerization. This is where lots of small molecules (monomers) are combined to form big molecules (polymers), releasing water molecules at every step. Such reactions can go the other way, a process called hydrolysis: water plus polymer produces monomers. A basic chemical law tells us that water is the last place we would want to try condensation reactions; rather, it would help break up big molecules. Yet the text books told us that life began in a primordial soup, which contains rather a lot of water! (3)

ImageDiagram of chirality.

Also, theory—as well as plenty of practice in chemistry labs—taught us that reactions won’t always go the way you want—chemicals want to react in other ways as well. For example, although life needs both sugars and amino acids, unless they are kept apart (e.g. by the cell’s architecture), they will react and destroy each other. This in fact happens during bruising of fruit and cooking. Also, real chemists recognize the danger, and attach ‘protecting groups’ to stop certain reactions, then remove them. The alleged primordial soup didn’t have any chemists around!

Another interesting fact we learned was that many chemicals of life came in two ‘mirror image’ forms, rather like your left and right hand (hence the term ‘chirality’ from the Greek word for ‘hand’, cheir χεὶρ). Yet life contained only one of them. A single impurity could destroy the DNA double helix or protein activity. But when we made such chemicals, they always arose in a 50/50 mix. We managed to separate them using one-handed forms obtained from living things, which helped to crystallize one of the forms we were after. This was quite involved. But once we had the needed one-handed form, it was very easy to revert it to the 50/50 mixture, e.g. just adding charcoal. So there was a huge problem with the primordial soup idea: it would produce the 50/50 mixture, not the pure one-handed forms needed for life.4


Also, since he is "not an expert in organic chemistry because physical chemistry is the farthest you can get from biology..." or whatever variation of that, here is a video of a lecture by an individual with proper credentials, just in case some types of people wish to argue against the speaker rather than the speech. This is Dr A.E. Wilder-Smith,

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZBO6Z0f84Q[/youtube]



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17 Dec 2009, 3:10 am

panda wrote:
The difference between life and non-life is not trivial, nor is the generation of life from life. The transition from life to non-life, a non trivial thing, is observed to be caused by natural processes, the process of the generation of life from life is also observed to be caused by natural processes. These are non-trivial.
Well, their we may have a difference in interpretation of the facts. Without the instructions embedded in living organisms it could not take non-life and add it to its own or take a part of its own, merge it with a part from another to generate a new life form. There is some intelligence embedded in those instructions. Life is technically an intelligent system, limited in many ways, not a general intelligence like we have, but more then nothing at all. just as that us building a machine requires the application of natural processes, these are not strictly natural in the sense that they would have happened even in our absence.

panda wrote:
So far as I can tell, the nuclear fusion processes within our solar system's sun are natural processes and assuredly non trivial at the macro-scopic level.
When I say (non)trivial, I mean "(non)trivial to replicate, reproduce, repeat (even if it would require absurd amount of resources)". Something trivial is something which could happen without any help from us, if the conditions are just right and the chance for that is very good.

panda wrote:
The non-trivial at the macro scropic level stuff, by and large appears to me to have natural causes.
Could you then explain (in trivial, repeatable terms) how life was generated from only strictly natural processes?

I would consider the sun indeed trivial once one have a universe like our own.



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17 Dec 2009, 3:17 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Also, since he is "not an expert in organic chemistry because physical chemistry is the farthest you can get from biology..."

That's an unfair straw man, and you know it.
Dr. Sarfarti can talk about chemistry all he wants, but speculation about abiogenesis is still outside his research specialties. I do not comment on abiogenesis because I don't know the relevant material. From what little I can tell, we still don't have a solid case for how life first got started. Biological evolution does give us a reasonably good explanation of how life developed, but we don't really know how it all started. At least, not yet.

Quote:
or whatever variation of that, here is a video of a lecture by an individual with proper credentials, just in case some types of people wish to argue against the speaker rather than the speech. This is Dr A.E. Wilder-Smith,

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZBO6Z0f84Q[/youtube]

It's too long of a video to watch, especially since I should be packing now. I just want to point out that evolution and abiogenesis are two separate ideas.


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17 Dec 2009, 3:20 am

Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Also, since he is "not an expert in organic chemistry because physical chemistry is the farthest you can get from biology..."

That's an unfair straw man, and you know it.
Is there supposed to be a "fair" kind? All strawmen are unfair. And so is argument by switching definitions.



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17 Dec 2009, 3:24 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
And so is argument by switching definitions.

I haven't been switching definitions, CMI has. Darwin never attempted to explain the origin of life. Evolutionary biology does not generally delve into that question. Evolution explains the descent, modification, development, and diversification of life. Origins is a separate subject.


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17 Dec 2009, 3:36 am

Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
And so is argument by switching definitions.

I haven't been switching definitions, CMI has. Darwin never attempted to explain the origin of life. Evolutionary biology does not generally delve into that question. Evolution explains the descent, modification, development, and diversification of life. Origins is a separate subject.


Darwin never did? I suppose not in a very academic format, but here is the letter between Darwin and Hooker on February 1st, 1871,

Charles Darwin wrote:
My dear Hooker,

I return the pamphlets, which I have been very glad to read.—It will be a curious discovery if Mr. Lowe’s observation that boiling does not kill certain molds is proved true; but then how on earth is the absence of all living things in Pasteur’s experiments to be accounted for?—I am always delighted to see a word in favour of Pangenesis, which some day, I believe, will have a resurrection. Mr. Dyer’s paper strikes me as a very able Spencieran production.

It is often said that all the conditions for the first production of a living organism are now present, which could ever have been present. But if (and oh what a big if) we could conceive in some warm little pond with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts,—light, heat, electricity &c. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed, ready to undergo still more complex changes, at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured, or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed.

Henrietta makes hardly any progress, and God knows when she will be well.

I enjoyed much the visit of you four gentlemen, i.e., after the Saturday night, when I thought I was quite done for.

Yours affecty

C. Darwin



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17 Dec 2009, 4:52 am

It was Darwin's work, more then anyone else, while (maybe even against Darwin his own better judgement) which promoted the idea that really silly simple things could become organized into increasingly more sophisticated systems by having only strictly natural forces acting upon them.

This idea was embraced by the anti-religious groups of the late 19th century and it quickly became the origin myth of the secular non-theistic community that developed as a quite natural outcome of having a separation of church and state and freedom of conviction. In practical terms freedom of conviction means your religion is irrelevant; You may belief whatever you want as long as you don't take it too seriously.

From The Great War (World War One) (especially after the atrocities of the Second World War) onward you see a steady increase in people who have no religious affiliation. This idea of self-organization has become very popular mostly trough social change, not actual scientific evidence.

After 150 years the scientific question still remains if self-organization is truly possible. We can still only offer examples of self-ordering though strictly natural forces; We have never seen something like self-organizaton without intelligence hiding somewhere as the driving force.

The only reason we even consider abiogenesis is because of this general idea that many people take for granted that physical systems can self-organize. Even though we have no evidence beyond self-ordering.

The difference between self-ordering and self-organization is not hard to understand: The ordering we see in self-ordering phenomena is derived from the preceding less-ordered physical system. Organization requires information which cannot be derived from the preceding physical system. Ordering always follows as a direct consequence from the physical properties of the parts; whereas organization can only be imposed upon the physical system. So even though organization is consistent with the physical properties of the system it cannot appear by itself from a less organized system.

As usually most people are not as precise with the usage of such terms and there is some confusion. There is a strong tendency to equivocation, which can result in people just not seeing the difference. And naturally denying any difference exists.

Others like Stuart Kauffman propose additional laws of thermodynamics to explain a phenomenon which has never empirically been observed; Only because it became so popular as an essential part of the current cultural and social paradigm is it assumed to be correct. The existence of life itself is seen as evidence. This results in a rather interesting problem: As far as true self-organization is assumed as a physical, strictly natural phenomenon, it seems to strangely only apply to life and to occur only with regard to life, filling all the gaps between hypotheses and reality. Outside of life no examples of self-organization are ever found.



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17 Dec 2009, 2:28 pm

Meta wrote:
...

The difference between self-ordering and self-organization is not hard to understand: The ordering we see in self-ordering phenomena is derived from the preceding less-ordered physical system. Organization requires information which cannot be derived from the preceding physical system. Ordering always follows as a direct consequence from the physical properties of the parts; whereas organization can only be imposed upon the physical system. So even though organization is consistent with the physical properties of the system it cannot appear by itself from a less organized system.

...

The above illustrates rather nicely your usual circular reasoning. You insist that: "organization can only be imposed upon the physical system" - which instantly invalidates any concept of "self-organization" - unless you admit that a system can impose order on itself - which sounds very much like abiogenesis.


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17 Dec 2009, 3:27 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7lnLCatp64[/youtube]


Another quote from Sarfati:

Quote:
... after all, we share 50% of our DNA with bananas but that doesn't mean we're half banana


No, but does mean that humans and bananas have a common ancestor. Just like humans and chimps have a common ancestor.



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17 Dec 2009, 4:10 pm

Meta wrote:
Jono wrote:
Alternative: common ancestry. The modular design appears in nature because each "module" originated from a single kind of organism.
How would that work? All cells contain the same genetic codes!


So? Different genes (parts of the DNA) are activated to produce different cells. Scientists can turn stem cells into any kind of cell they want by stimulating the right genes.

Meta wrote:
Besides the point was that it was a hierarchy of modular organization: DNA, RNA, enzymes; cell organelles; many different cells; cells form tissues; tissues form organs; several organs need to work together to form bodies and bodies sometimes form colonies. Every layer is defined on genetic level, and expression of the genetic code.


The answer is the same as before. For instance, the cell nucleus that exists in every cell can be traced back to the original eukaryotes. Other kinds of organelles probably came later. Enzyme activation and so on had their evolutionary pathways too but I don't know much about it. As Orwell said, look it up if you're interested.

Meta wrote:
If the fusion happened in genetic level (merging of genomes) then we have missing pieces. There is a lot of regulatory code in the DNA used during initial development of an individual: Where did this come from?


It evolved. I haven't studied genetics or biology after high school but maybe the first multicellular organism was composed of one kind of tissue. Then this came about via natural selection and allowed multicellular to evolve. I don't know the answers but I'm pretty sure this can have evolutionary pathways as well.

Meta wrote:
It should be possible to do experimental research in this regard? What would falsify this hypotheses?


Yes, by checking the genomes.

Meta wrote:
Jono wrote:
Also note that because the different species may have to evolve according to different environments, the original function of that specific feature can adapt to perform a different purpose.
Maybe? It's hard to find an objective example.


Feathers evolved from scales, originally for warmth and insulation (the use dinosaurs had for feathers). They became longer and so could be used for flight.

Meta wrote:
Jono wrote:
Explaining why there would be the same structures across species designed for different tasks. Note that the most complex similar structures indicate that those species have a recent common ancestor. Those complex structures can be broken up into simpler parts which are common amongst a more diversity of life and are the result of a more distant common ancestor etc.
We're going here offtopic, but not to disappoint: Reuse could be an explanation. What if we would take a existing individual and then edit its genetic makeup to create a new species.


Then that would be a product of genetic engineering not evolution. In principle, you could create species that would not of evolved naturally unless certain features evolved separately from similar features found in other animals. Like humans with wings for example, since humans don't share the genome for wings with birds.

Meta wrote:
Another would be the use of compilers: programs which are very different on source end up containing large nearly identical parts in the object code (when statically linked).


The identical parts of object code are due to different programs being linked to the same libraries. I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here.