why do people bash islam but love christianity??
08 Aug 2013, 3:43 pm
sonofghandi wrote:
Just out of curiosity, out of all the people posting in this thread who believe that the majority of Muslims are dangerous and violent people, how many of you have even had a conversation with a Muslim?
All of the BS that you spew about Muslims is precisely the same type of BS that Muslim extremist factions use to paint Christianity as dangerous fundamentalists.
I live in a pretty shady neighborhood. There is also a small but significant Muslim population here. Do you want to guess how many of them have been arrested for violent crimes? I'll give you a hint: it's between -1 and 1. There is quite a bit of violent crime around here. The majority of the people here will tell you that they are 100% Christian, and most seem to have the same prejudiced views. There has been a lot of property damage to Muslim homes, cars, and businesses, but no one seems to care. The Muslims in my building just shrug their shoulders and say things like, "well that's just America for you." I really think that all of this overly publicized and overly rationalized religious discrimination is only going to make the problems you fear much, much worse in the long run.
All of the BS that you spew about Muslims is precisely the same type of BS that Muslim extremist factions use to paint Christianity as dangerous fundamentalists.
I live in a pretty shady neighborhood. There is also a small but significant Muslim population here. Do you want to guess how many of them have been arrested for violent crimes? I'll give you a hint: it's between -1 and 1. There is quite a bit of violent crime around here. The majority of the people here will tell you that they are 100% Christian, and most seem to have the same prejudiced views. There has been a lot of property damage to Muslim homes, cars, and businesses, but no one seems to care. The Muslims in my building just shrug their shoulders and say things like, "well that's just America for you." I really think that all of this overly publicized and overly rationalized religious discrimination is only going to make the problems you fear much, much worse in the long run.
sonofghandi, it's actually somewhat difficult to figure out *who* you are addressing. You haven't responded to my latest respone to your post, so I am somewhat bewildered about who you are referring to.
Perhaps it would be better if you respond to specific posts (with appropriate quotes) to make it more clear who you are arguing with, and what you are arguing about...
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08 Aug 2013, 3:46 pm
sonofghandi wrote:
That is one of the problems with taking a tiny passage out of a religious work thousands of years old and applying a specific interpretation to it with no knowledge of the historical, cultural, or artistic context. It happens with every single work of religious writing.
From what I've seen of Greb's posts he does have more than a passing knowledge of islamic history. The modern interpretation of old religious texts is important if a large proportion of the world use it as the base structure of their lives.
Last edited by neilson_wheels on 08 Aug 2013, 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sonofghandi
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08 Aug 2013, 3:47 pm
GGPViper wrote:
sonofghandi, it's actually somewhat difficult to figure out *who* you are addressing. You haven't responded to my latest respone to your post, so I am somewhat bewildered about who you are referring to.
Perhaps it would be better if you respond to specific posts (with appropriate quotes) to make it more clear who you are arguing with, and what you are arguing about...
Perhaps it would be better if you respond to specific posts (with appropriate quotes) to make it more clear who you are arguing with, and what you are arguing about...
I am addressing anyone who thinks that the central message of Islam is to destroy all infidels.
I did not respond to your post because there is nothing to respond to. Your link has a fundamentally flawed study. I have not found one that I have found to be even remotely trustworthy from either side of the argument.
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08 Aug 2013, 4:11 pm
sonofghandi wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
sonofghandi, it's actually somewhat difficult to figure out *who* you are addressing. You haven't responded to my latest respone to your post, so I am somewhat bewildered about who you are referring to.
Perhaps it would be better if you respond to specific posts (with appropriate quotes) to make it more clear who you are arguing with, and what you are arguing about...
Perhaps it would be better if you respond to specific posts (with appropriate quotes) to make it more clear who you are arguing with, and what you are arguing about...
I am addressing anyone who thinks that the central message of Islam is to destroy all infidels.
I haven't encountered that particular statement in this thread (but I did not look, either, so someone might have put it forth).
Anyway, The Qur'an only supports that Islam should fight all infidels, as per the (in)famous Q 9:5, not destroy them. The call for the destruction of specific categories of infidels (atheists, apostates, Jews) is found in the Hadith, however. I have provided sources for the atheists and the apostates in this thread. As for the Jews, the Hadith of the Gharqad tree speaks for itself.
sonofghandi wrote:
I did not respond to your post because there is nothing to respond to. Your link has a fundamentally flawed study. I have not found one that I have found to be even remotely trustworthy from either side of the argument.
I certainly hope that you have the statistical skills to defend that accusation. Please enlighten me about why the Pew study on the views of Muslims is "fundamentally flawed".
To ease your response, here is a link to the survey methodology, describing the stratified area probability samples used in the countries involved in the study:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... iety-appc/
sonofghandi
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08 Aug 2013, 4:30 pm
GGPViper wrote:
I certainly hope that you have the statistical skills to defend that accusation. Please enlighten me about why the Pew study on the views of Muslims is "fundamentally flawed".
Selected sections from you link:
Quote:
Findings are reported exclusively for Muslims; however, the survey is based on national samples that did not screen out non-Muslims, except in Thailand, where a sample of only Muslims was fielded in five southern provinces. In certain instances, regions of countries with high levels of insecurity or limited access were also excluded from the national samples. Oversamples of Muslims were conducted in two countries: Bosnia-Herzegovina and Russia. In both countries, oversampling was achieved by disproportionately sampling regions or territories known to have higher concentrations of Muslims.
Conducting opinion polls in diverse societies necessitates adapting the survey to local sensitivities. In some countries, pretest results indicated the need to suppress certain questions to avoid offending respondents and/or risking the security of the interviewers. In other countries, interviewers considered some questions too sensitive to pretest. Thus, not all questions were asked in all countries.
For example, interviewers in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Morocco indicated that certain questions about sexual preference and sexual behavior were too sensitive to be asked. Questions on these topics were either eliminated or modified in these countries.
It should be noted that practical difficulties in conducting multinational surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of opinion polls. In some countries, the achieved samples suffered from imbalances in the number of women or men interviewed, while in some countries a lack of adequate, national-level statistics made it difficult to assess the accuracy of educational characteristics among the sampled population. Specific difficulties encountered were:
Gender Imbalances: In Afghanistan and Niger, the survey respondents are disproportionately male, while in Thailand, Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan they are disproportionately female.
In each of these countries interviewers faced practical difficulties in reaching additional male or female respondents. In Afghanistan, despite strict gender matching, cultural norms frequently limited the ability of interviewers to contact women in certain areas. In Niger, difficulties associated with recruiting enough female interviewers affected gender matching and may have discouraged the participation of women in the survey.
Surveying in active conflict zones posed particular challenges for interviewers. In southern Thailand, security concerns limited the number of interviews that could be conducted in the evening hours, leading in part to fewer interviews with men, who often are out of the house during daytime hours.
In Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan, large-scale labor migration patterns may have contributed to fewer interviews with male respondents.
Education: In many countries, census statistics on education are unavailable, dated or disputed by experts. The lack of reliable national statistics limits the extent to which survey samples can be assessed for representativeness on this measure.
In Albania, the Palestinian territories and Tajikistan, the surveys appear to overrepresent highly educated respondents compared with the last available national census. In each of these cases, however, official education statistics are based on, or estimated from, censuses conducted five or more years prior to the survey and thus were not used for the purposes of weighting.
In Niger, the sample is disproportionately well-educated compared with the last available Demographic and Health Survey (2006), but no education census statistics are available to assess the representativeness of the sample.
In addition to sampling error and other practical difficulties, one should bear in mind that question wording can also have an impact on the findings of opinion polls
Conducting opinion polls in diverse societies necessitates adapting the survey to local sensitivities. In some countries, pretest results indicated the need to suppress certain questions to avoid offending respondents and/or risking the security of the interviewers. In other countries, interviewers considered some questions too sensitive to pretest. Thus, not all questions were asked in all countries.
For example, interviewers in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Morocco indicated that certain questions about sexual preference and sexual behavior were too sensitive to be asked. Questions on these topics were either eliminated or modified in these countries.
It should be noted that practical difficulties in conducting multinational surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of opinion polls. In some countries, the achieved samples suffered from imbalances in the number of women or men interviewed, while in some countries a lack of adequate, national-level statistics made it difficult to assess the accuracy of educational characteristics among the sampled population. Specific difficulties encountered were:
Gender Imbalances: In Afghanistan and Niger, the survey respondents are disproportionately male, while in Thailand, Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan they are disproportionately female.
In each of these countries interviewers faced practical difficulties in reaching additional male or female respondents. In Afghanistan, despite strict gender matching, cultural norms frequently limited the ability of interviewers to contact women in certain areas. In Niger, difficulties associated with recruiting enough female interviewers affected gender matching and may have discouraged the participation of women in the survey.
Surveying in active conflict zones posed particular challenges for interviewers. In southern Thailand, security concerns limited the number of interviews that could be conducted in the evening hours, leading in part to fewer interviews with men, who often are out of the house during daytime hours.
In Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan, large-scale labor migration patterns may have contributed to fewer interviews with male respondents.
Education: In many countries, census statistics on education are unavailable, dated or disputed by experts. The lack of reliable national statistics limits the extent to which survey samples can be assessed for representativeness on this measure.
In Albania, the Palestinian territories and Tajikistan, the surveys appear to overrepresent highly educated respondents compared with the last available national census. In each of these cases, however, official education statistics are based on, or estimated from, censuses conducted five or more years prior to the survey and thus were not used for the purposes of weighting.
In Niger, the sample is disproportionately well-educated compared with the last available Demographic and Health Survey (2006), but no education census statistics are available to assess the representativeness of the sample.
In addition to sampling error and other practical difficulties, one should bear in mind that question wording can also have an impact on the findings of opinion polls
Yes, the study was conducted in an excellent and professional manor, from an academic statistics standpoint. And yes the "confidence level" is 95%, but the confidence level only means that the margin in error from methodology is only 5% For each and every country.
The simple fact that non-Muslims were not screened out in 38 out of the 39 countries that data was collected from is the largest flaw in the study by far. There is no way to tell what percentage of the voluntarily disclosed opinions even came from Muslims.
There are very few statistical studies that are performed with a structural focus on anything other than standardizing their data collection methods. The field of statistics is based on theory that only marginally takes human behavior into account.
You can find a "valid" study to support any position you want to take on any subject. And if you can't and have some cash, you can make one happen.
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08 Aug 2013, 4:40 pm
Tequila wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Anyway, The Qur'an only supports that Islam should fight all infidels/
Does the original Arabic not have the connotation more of "fight to kill" rather than simple fighting? It's a small but important difference.
Let's see... Here are several translations of 9:5 from quran.com:
Sahih International: And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Pickthall: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Yusuf Ali: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Shakir: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Muhammad Sarwar: When the sacred months are over, slay the pagans wherever you find them. Capture, besiege, and ambush them. If they repent, perform prayers and pay the religious tax, set them free. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.
Mohsin Khan: Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Arberry: Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.
I stand corrected, it would seem. I apologize for my sloppiness.
08 Aug 2013, 4:47 pm
sonofghandi wrote:
Greb wrote:
It means that the more honorable is othe one who keeps his duty.
Duty in islam, of course, includes killing unbelievers and jews. So 'moderate' muslims are not really very honorable. At least, according to Mohammad.
Duty in islam, of course, includes killing unbelievers and jews. So 'moderate' muslims are not really very honorable. At least, according to Mohammad.
This is one of the most ridiculously narrow-minded, over-simplified, and offensively ignorant things I have seen in quite some time. It is like saying that 'moderate' Christians are not honorable because they don't stone women to death for being raped and not calling out loud enough to be rescued.
Earlier in the thread I put some examples to support what I say.
Quran
Quran (2:191-193) And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.
Quran (2:216) Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it.
Quran (3:151) Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority
Quran (4:104) And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain...
Quran (5:33) The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned
Quran (9:14) Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace...
Quran (9:29) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth
Quran (17:16) And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.
Hadith
Bukhari (52:256) The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).
Bukhari (52:220) Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'
Bukhari (11:626) I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.
Tabari 9:69 Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us
Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power."
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992 Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.
Saifur Rahman, The Sealed Nectar p.227-228 Embrace Islam... If you two accept Islam, you will remain in command of your country; but if your refuse my Call, you’ve got to remember that all of your possessions are perishable. My horsemen will appropriate your land, and my Prophethood will assume preponderance over your kingship.
Besides that, I linked a video that describes the kind of person that was Mohammad, who is the model of behavior for muslims.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giiapwYL2U8[/youtube]
---------------------
And what you have? bold statements. And insults. Nothing remotely close to an argument.
Perhaps you're in some upper level of morality and intelligence so you don't need arguments to support your position as, you know, normal people do. You just dismiss what other people say because..... [rolldrum].... you;re the light and the truth.
This case, you should check your doctor. You're very likely to have the Liberal Syndrome.
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sonofghandi
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08 Aug 2013, 5:00 pm
GGPViper wrote:
Tequila wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Anyway, The Qur'an only supports that Islam should fight all infidels/
Does the original Arabic not have the connotation more of "fight to kill" rather than simple fighting? It's a small but important difference.
Let's see... Here are several translations of 9:5 from quran.com:
Sahih International: And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Pickthall: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Yusuf Ali: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Shakir: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Muhammad Sarwar: When the sacred months are over, slay the pagans wherever you find them. Capture, besiege, and ambush them. If they repent, perform prayers and pay the religious tax, set them free. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.
Mohsin Khan: Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Arberry: Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.
I stand corrected, it would seem. I apologize for my sloppiness.
Islam has no monopoly on atrocity in scripture:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)
If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:15)
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.(Deuteronomy 22:23-24)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)
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sonofghandi
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08 Aug 2013, 5:04 pm
Greb wrote:
And what you have? bold statements. And insults. Nothing remotely close to an argument.
This case, you should check your doctor. You're very likely to have the Liberal Syndrome.
This case, you should check your doctor. You're very likely to have the Liberal Syndrome.
So I'm a liberal because I have problems with people who promote religious intolerance?
And I have looked through your posts and found nothing of substance from an even remotely unbiased source.
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08 Aug 2013, 5:09 pm
sonofghandi wrote:
Greb wrote:
And what you have? bold statements. And insults. Nothing remotely close to an argument.
This case, you should check your doctor. You're very likely to have the Liberal Syndrome.
This case, you should check your doctor. You're very likely to have the Liberal Syndrome.
So I'm a liberal because I have problems with people who promote religious intolerance?
And I have looked through your posts and found nothing of substance from an even remotely unbiased source.
Well, tell muslims that the Q'uran and the Hadith are biased sources. Not sure if they're gonna agree with you.
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sonofghandi
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08 Aug 2013, 5:15 pm
Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
Greb wrote:
And what you have? bold statements. And insults. Nothing remotely close to an argument.
This case, you should check your doctor. You're very likely to have the Liberal Syndrome.
This case, you should check your doctor. You're very likely to have the Liberal Syndrome.
So I'm a liberal because I have problems with people who promote religious intolerance?
And I have looked through your posts and found nothing of substance from an even remotely unbiased source.
Well, tell muslims that the Q'uran and the Hadith are biased sources. Not sure if they're gonna agree with you.
I have never said they were not biased. I have only been trying to say that some of the ridiculous stereotypes floating around this forum about Muslims are as twisted as those that some Muslim extremists spew out.
You do realize that you are only taking a few passages out of a huge work. The same can be done to Christian texts (see above).
And by the way, if you want to take selected portions of Mohammed's life and works into these arguments, you might as well let in the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, slavery in the US, and any other bit of Christian atrocity that no one left alive is witness to.
_________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently" -Nietzsche
08 Aug 2013, 5:15 pm
sonofghandi wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
I certainly hope that you have the statistical skills to defend that accusation. Please enlighten me about why the Pew study on the views of Muslims is "fundamentally flawed".
Selected sections from you link:
Quote:
Findings are reported exclusively for Muslims; however, the survey is based on national samples that did not screen out non-Muslims, except in Thailand, where a sample of only Muslims was fielded in five southern provinces. In certain instances, regions of countries with high levels of insecurity or limited access were also excluded from the national samples. Oversamples of Muslims were conducted in two countries: Bosnia-Herzegovina and Russia. In both countries, oversampling was achieved by disproportionately sampling regions or territories known to have higher concentrations of Muslims.
Conducting opinion polls in diverse societies necessitates adapting the survey to local sensitivities. In some countries, pretest results indicated the need to suppress certain questions to avoid offending respondents and/or risking the security of the interviewers. In other countries, interviewers considered some questions too sensitive to pretest. Thus, not all questions were asked in all countries.
For example, interviewers in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Morocco indicated that certain questions about sexual preference and sexual behavior were too sensitive to be asked. Questions on these topics were either eliminated or modified in these countries.
It should be noted that practical difficulties in conducting multinational surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of opinion polls. In some countries, the achieved samples suffered from imbalances in the number of women or men interviewed, while in some countries a lack of adequate, national-level statistics made it difficult to assess the accuracy of educational characteristics among the sampled population. Specific difficulties encountered were:
Gender Imbalances: In Afghanistan and Niger, the survey respondents are disproportionately male, while in Thailand, Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan they are disproportionately female.
In each of these countries interviewers faced practical difficulties in reaching additional male or female respondents. In Afghanistan, despite strict gender matching, cultural norms frequently limited the ability of interviewers to contact women in certain areas. In Niger, difficulties associated with recruiting enough female interviewers affected gender matching and may have discouraged the participation of women in the survey.
Surveying in active conflict zones posed particular challenges for interviewers. In southern Thailand, security concerns limited the number of interviews that could be conducted in the evening hours, leading in part to fewer interviews with men, who often are out of the house during daytime hours.
In Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan, large-scale labor migration patterns may have contributed to fewer interviews with male respondents.
Education: In many countries, census statistics on education are unavailable, dated or disputed by experts. The lack of reliable national statistics limits the extent to which survey samples can be assessed for representativeness on this measure.
In Albania, the Palestinian territories and Tajikistan, the surveys appear to overrepresent highly educated respondents compared with the last available national census. In each of these cases, however, official education statistics are based on, or estimated from, censuses conducted five or more years prior to the survey and thus were not used for the purposes of weighting.
In Niger, the sample is disproportionately well-educated compared with the last available Demographic and Health Survey (2006), but no education census statistics are available to assess the representativeness of the sample.
In addition to sampling error and other practical difficulties, one should bear in mind that question wording can also have an impact on the findings of opinion polls.
Conducting opinion polls in diverse societies necessitates adapting the survey to local sensitivities. In some countries, pretest results indicated the need to suppress certain questions to avoid offending respondents and/or risking the security of the interviewers. In other countries, interviewers considered some questions too sensitive to pretest. Thus, not all questions were asked in all countries.
For example, interviewers in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Morocco indicated that certain questions about sexual preference and sexual behavior were too sensitive to be asked. Questions on these topics were either eliminated or modified in these countries.
It should be noted that practical difficulties in conducting multinational surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of opinion polls. In some countries, the achieved samples suffered from imbalances in the number of women or men interviewed, while in some countries a lack of adequate, national-level statistics made it difficult to assess the accuracy of educational characteristics among the sampled population. Specific difficulties encountered were:
Gender Imbalances: In Afghanistan and Niger, the survey respondents are disproportionately male, while in Thailand, Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan they are disproportionately female.
In each of these countries interviewers faced practical difficulties in reaching additional male or female respondents. In Afghanistan, despite strict gender matching, cultural norms frequently limited the ability of interviewers to contact women in certain areas. In Niger, difficulties associated with recruiting enough female interviewers affected gender matching and may have discouraged the participation of women in the survey.
Surveying in active conflict zones posed particular challenges for interviewers. In southern Thailand, security concerns limited the number of interviews that could be conducted in the evening hours, leading in part to fewer interviews with men, who often are out of the house during daytime hours.
In Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan, large-scale labor migration patterns may have contributed to fewer interviews with male respondents.
Education: In many countries, census statistics on education are unavailable, dated or disputed by experts. The lack of reliable national statistics limits the extent to which survey samples can be assessed for representativeness on this measure.
In Albania, the Palestinian territories and Tajikistan, the surveys appear to overrepresent highly educated respondents compared with the last available national census. In each of these cases, however, official education statistics are based on, or estimated from, censuses conducted five or more years prior to the survey and thus were not used for the purposes of weighting.
In Niger, the sample is disproportionately well-educated compared with the last available Demographic and Health Survey (2006), but no education census statistics are available to assess the representativeness of the sample.
In addition to sampling error and other practical difficulties, one should bear in mind that question wording can also have an impact on the findings of opinion polls.
Nice. You can quote. Now please explain why this makes the study "fundamentally flawed". The support for Sharia is so pronounced in the study that it would take a *massive* bias to even put a dent in the overall conclusion.
sonofghandi wrote:
The simple fact that non-Muslims were not screened out in 38 out of the 39 countries that data was collected from is the largest flaw in the study by far. There is no way to tell what percentage of the voluntarily disclosed opinions even came from Muslims.
Quote:
Findings are reported exclusively for Muslims; however, the survey is based on national samples that did not screen out non-Muslims, except in Thailand, where a sample of only Muslims was fielded in five southern provinces.
Umm... what?
sonofghandi wrote:
There are very few statistical studies that are performed with a structural focus on anything other than standardizing their data collection methods. The field of statistics is based on theory that only marginally takes human behavior into account.
Word salad?
sonofghandi wrote:
You can find a "valid" study to support any position you want to take on any subject. And if you can't and have some cash, you can make one happen.
This is an unsubstantiated one-liner. Are you taking lessons from nominalist?
sonofghandi
Veteran
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,540
Location: Cleveland, OH (and not the nice part)
08 Aug 2013, 5:21 pm
you are looking at it the wrong way:
Quote:
Findings are reported exclusively for Muslims; however, the survey is based on national samples that did not screen out non-Muslims, except in Thailand, where a sample of only Muslims was fielded in five southern provinces.
As I said, fundamentally flawed.
And if you read the study carefully, their definition of supporting sharia law is supporting any part of it at all, even the parts that are similar to modern day Christian morality.
_________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently" -Nietzsche
Last edited by sonofghandi on 08 Aug 2013, 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
08 Aug 2013, 5:22 pm
sonofghandi wrote:
Islam has no monopoly on atrocity in scripture:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)
If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:15)
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.(Deuteronomy 22:23-24)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)
If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:15)
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.(Deuteronomy 22:23-24)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)
Could you please provide a list of countries that enforce these verses as law? khtx.
sonofghandi
Veteran
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,540
Location: Cleveland, OH (and not the nice part)
08 Aug 2013, 5:26 pm
GGPViper wrote:
Let's see... Here are several translations of 9:5 from quran.com:
Sahih International: And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Pickthall: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Yusuf Ali: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Shakir: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Muhammad Sarwar: When the sacred months are over, slay the pagans wherever you find them. Capture, besiege, and ambush them. If they repent, perform prayers and pay the religious tax, set them free. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.
Mohsin Khan: Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Arberry: Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.
I stand corrected, it would seem. I apologize for my sloppiness.
Sahih International: And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Pickthall: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Yusuf Ali: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Shakir: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Muhammad Sarwar: When the sacred months are over, slay the pagans wherever you find them. Capture, besiege, and ambush them. If they repent, perform prayers and pay the religious tax, set them free. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.
Mohsin Khan: Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Arberry: Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.
I stand corrected, it would seem. I apologize for my sloppiness.
And can you provide me with a list of countries that enforce these as law?
_________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently" -Nietzsche
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