Trump's various attempts to challenge election results

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ASPartOfMe
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27 Dec 2020, 9:59 pm

Is Trump’s Coup a ‘Dress Rehearsal?’

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The United States has survived the 2020 election and its seemingly never-ending and increasingly bizarre aftermath. Efforts by Donald Trump to overturn Joe Biden’s victory in the courts met abject failure at almost every turn even as a number of Republican elected officials and Republican voters embraced them. The most apocalyptic scenarios that some scholars worried about before the election did not come to pass. But nothing that happened after November 3 can be considered normal — not the threats to election officials, not the concerted legal effort to invalidate millions of votes, and certainly not Four Seasons Total Landscaping.

Some prominent academic figures who study how countries fall into dictatorships are deeply concerned about what would come next.

Daniel Ziblatt, a political science professor at Harvard and the co-author of How Democracies Die, told Intelligencer, “I think it’s pretty clear that there was a somewhat serious effort to steal this election. It’s not going to succeed. In that sense, the acute normative crisis has passed. It doesn’t mean our checks and balances have worked.” He pointed to what he described as “a chronic slow burning problem” within the American electorate, the “radicalization” within the Republican Party. “One can’t have a democracy [in a two party system] where one of the two parties is not fully committed to democratic norms.”

I worry that this whole post-election process has been the dress rehearsal,” said Harvard political scientist Steven Levitsky, the other co-author of How Democracies Die, citing Vladimir Lenin’s quote that the Russian Revolution of 1905 was the “dress rehearsal” for the October Revolution of 1917, which put the Bolsheviks in power. Levitsky noted that not only have Republicans found that “their base won’t punish this sort of behavior, they’ll likely applaud it.” He added, “none of this stuff can be unlearned.”

Experts weren’t comforted by the slapstick nature of Trump campaign’s efforts to overturn the election, ranging from farcical conspiratorial claims to the hair dye dripping down Rudy Giuliani’s cheeks. “I think we do make a mistake that authoritarians are always as competent at the time as they appear in retrospect,” said Ziblatt. “Mussolini was a clown. Hitler was very lazy. It’s not as if they are always paragons of self-discipline and organization.”

These two scholars both expressed real concerns about what they see as structural flaws in our current system — flaws that allow a political party, in this case, the Republican Party, to consistently win power despite failing to win a plurality of the vote (as Trump did in 2016). This undercuts the idea of a self-correcting two-party system where, as Ziblatt put it, “If one party goes off the rails, it will be punished at the ballot box.”

Not everything went wrong, though. As Joshua Tucker, a professor at New York University and co-director of NYU’s Center for Social Media and Politics put it “the good news … is the amount of violence that occurred around this election was totally negligible.” He noted this is not the case in fragile democracies where polling stations are blown up, election workers are shot, and people are physically harmed while counting votes. Compared to scenarios as dire as those, the United States looks good. Tucker also noted the separation of powers held. “The people who work in the judicial branch do not see their role as ratifying the wishes of whoever runs the executive branch.” He noted that it wasn’t simply a situation where there were enough judges appointed by Democrats to throw out Trump’s lawsuits. Instead, Republican-appointed federal judges up to the Supreme Court — including those appointed by Trump himself — repeatedly ruled against him.

Yet the question remains as to whether these guardrails will last.

The question is what the future of American democracy looks like with the specter of Trump in exile at Mar-a-Lago, still falsely claiming fraud. “All Trump has on his side is his base,” said Valerie Bunce, a political scientist at Cornell. “That is the currency of his power, and he will hold on to it as much possible.” The question is whether Trump’s base will still pay attention to him after he leaves office — the answer will affect how future generations view him and this episode.

For Ziblatt, the analogy in American history was to Joseph McCarthy, who became anathema only years after he dominated Washington, D.C., with his demagogic anti-communist crusade.

The alternative scenario proffered is that if false claims of a stolen election will persist like the “stab in the back” myth after World War I in Germany, which wrongfully suggested that democratic politicians had betrayed the army and prevented victory.

Overall, Levitsky noted that we don’t have “too many parallels” for the present situation. The United States, he thought, would avoid civil war like Spain in the 1930s and a situation like Venezuela or Turkey where “one side gains hegemony and crushes the other.” Instead, he said, the United States is “stuck with two relatively evenly matched sides, one side weaker but advantaged by institutions and more aggressively authoritarian.” Further, he thought the most historically common outcome — military intervention — is just not going to happen.

Instead, the United States is “headed to a medium term of dysfunction and careening in and out of institutional crisis” in a situation without any historical parallel, he said, adding that “stability and dysfunction are a rare combination.”


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29 Dec 2020, 7:35 am

One analysis finds 200k+ more votes were counted than total voters in Pennsylvania.

https://wjactv.com/news/local/pa-republ ... ont-add-up

Ryan says they found that 6,962,607 total ballots were reported as being cast, while DoS/SURE system records indicated that only 6,760,230 total voters actually voted.

Among the 6,962,607 total ballots cast, 6,931,060 total votes were counted in the presidential race, including all three candidates on the ballot and write-in candidates, according to Ryan.

He says the difference of 202,377 more votes cast than voters voting, together with the 31,547 over- and under-votes in the presidential race, adds up to a discrepancy of 170,830 votes, which is more than twice the reported statewide difference between Donald Trump and Joe Biden.


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29 Dec 2020, 9:15 am

Mikah wrote:
One analysis...

 
 
 
One.


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29 Dec 2020, 1:45 pm

It gets interesting in that article after "The Pennsylvania Department of State released the following statement in response to the Republicans' claims" - which seems to be indicating the same type of basic case failure as all the others.


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roronoa79
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29 Dec 2020, 1:47 pm

Mikah wrote:
One analysis finds 200k+ more votes were counted than total voters in Pennsylvania.

https://wjactv.com/news/local/pa-republ ... ont-add-up


To quote your own article:
Quote:
The Pennsylvania Department of State released the following statement in response to the Republicans' claims:

"In today’s release Rep. Ryan and others rehash, with the same lack of evidence and the same absence of supporting documentation, repeatedly debunked conspiracy theories regarding the November 3 election. State and federal judges have sifted through hundreds of pages of unsubstantiated and false allegations and found no evidence of fraud or illegal voting.

"Now, the legislators have given us another perfect example of the dangers of uninformed, lay analysis combined with a basic lack of election administration knowledge.

"For instance, it is quite common to have significant "undervotes" for down-ballot races in a presidential election, particularly when there isn't a U.S. Senate race on the ballot. In 2000, Sen. Santorum received 200,000 more votes than President Bush, but the US Senate race still had more than 100,000 fewer votes than the presidential race.

"We are unclear as to what data the legislators used for this most recent “analysis.” But the only way to determine the number of voters who voted in November from the SURE system is through the vote histories. At this time, there are still a few counties that have not completed uploading their vote histories to the SURE system. These counties, which include Philadelphia, Allegheny, Butler and Cambria, would account for a significant number of voters. The numbers certified by the counties, not the uploading of voter histories into the SURE system, determines the ultimate certification of an election by the secretary.

"This obvious misinformation put forth by Rep. Ryan and others is the hallmark of so many of the claims made about this year’s presidential election. When exposed to even the simplest examination, courts at every level have found these and similar conspiratorial claims to be wholly without basis.

"To put it simply, this so-called analysis was based on incomplete data."

Did we even read that far, or was this a strategic omission?


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29 Dec 2020, 4:16 pm

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Lol he lost the election ~2 months ago.. slow, indeed! :lol:


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29 Dec 2020, 5:04 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Image

Lol he lost the election ~2 months ago.. slow, indeed! :lol:


But but but, 70 million people insist otherwise and that their guy won because no one they know will admit to have voted for Biden. You can't argue with that sort of logical reasoning. :wink:


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29 Dec 2020, 5:27 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
Did we even read that far, or was this a strategic omission?


I was aware. I have posted rebuttals or reasonable sounding explanations for election anomalies where I have found them, especially in my mod-murdered election thread. If you prefer I can just post Trump's tweets next time around.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 1336712199


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29 Dec 2020, 7:10 pm

Not really related to the thread, but funny enough to post: 4chan has an amusing thought about what might happen on the 6th:

Believe me or not it doesn’t matter. The 6 January elector ‘ballot’ count is going to go down as the greatest troll of all time.

You may or may not know, but the Vice President gets to count the electors. That’s the one thing the Constitution makes crystal clear.
Apparently the plan is for Mike Pence to roll in a Dominion voting machine (or a knock off that looks like one). He’s then going to pull out a USB drive, update the software just before the count, and use the machine to count the elector ballots.

Remember, this will be on national television. The count will not only come out fractional, but it will result in more votes than actual electors AND result in Trump winning more electors than Biden.

The chamber is expected erupt in chaos. Obviously the count will be challenged. Pence will then conduct a ‘recount,’ but he will use the machine to print the recount ballots and then hand count those. The recounted number will be similar to the original count, only changing by a couple votes, but it will result in Trump winning by even more than before.

Dems are expected to cry “fraud” and Pence will object and call for order. He will tell them that it’s too late to challenge because it’s already done. The count is finished. He will then deliberately wipe the machine’s software.

This is a rough sketch of what is being planned. I don’t know the exact details, but Trump wants to fill DC because this is going to be, as he said, “wild.”

I don’t know if Pence ultimately throws it to the House after the chaos or fully certifies Trump’s win in this manner. My source wasn’t sure (I think they’re still working out details).

I hope you’re ready for the salt to flow. Trump is a showman first and foremost, and he’s putting everything into this.


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goldfish21
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29 Dec 2020, 7:39 pm

^sounds like fan fiction trump supporter porn to me.


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29 Dec 2020, 7:46 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
^sounds like fan fiction trump supporter porn to me.
Yep. Trump-porn is the correct term ... a leading man with no personality, lousy dialog, no plot, and everyone gets screwed repeatedly while pretending to enjoy it.


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30 Dec 2020, 7:59 am

Pence would need a software upgrade himself before anything like this fantasy could happen. All he's done for the past four years is gaze adoringly at Trump.
Also, there are these little details to worry about.


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30 Dec 2020, 8:10 am

Pence has been like most Vice Presidents.

It turns out that many are lackeys of the President.



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31 Dec 2020, 9:31 am

John R. Lott of the US Department of Justice has released a paper on the scale of potential election fraud.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=3756988

Courts have frequently rejected Republican challenges to the 2020 presidential vote because they want evidence that a case involves enough fraud to alter the vote’s outcome in a particular state. Republicans argue that since their observers couldn’t watch the vote count, they can’t provide that evidence and have asked for discovery. Still, while the courts have agreed that irregularities have occurred, they weren’t willing to grant discovery unless Republicans first present enough evidence of fraud to overturn the election. Republicans thus faced a kind of Catch 22.

This paper’s approach allows us to quantify how large a potential problem vote fraud and other abnormalities might be in the 2020 election. The process is applicable to other states where precinct-level data is available on voting by absentee and in-person voting.


---

An excerpt regarding Fulton:

Precincts adjacent to each other on opposite sides of a county border should be relatively similar demographically. In one case, Fulton County precinct ML02A matches up with four different precincts in Cherokee County (Mountain Road 28, Avery 3, Union Hill 38 and a small portion of Freehome 18).12The goal is to compare the precincts of Fulton county that are most similar to precincts nearby counties that had no allegations of fraud, in order to isolate the impact of Fulton county’s vote-counting process (including potential fraud).

The analysis also accounts for the percent of in-person votes that went for Trump, because if you have two adjacent precincts and they are similar in terms of their demographics and in-person voting, one would expect them to also be roughly similar in terms of their absentee ballots.While Democrats were pushing their voters to vote by absentee ballot, there is no reason to expect that rate to differ between two precincts that are next to each other and are similar in terms of their in-person voting support and their demographics.

I did this test using the data from both 2016 and 2020. There were no serious accusations of fraud with respect to absentee ballots in 2016, so one should expect the absentee ballot percent for Trump in precincts in Fulton county to behave no differently than the adjacent precincts in Carroll, Cherokee, Coweta, and Forsyth.

The results in Table 1 show that in 2016, there was indeed essentially no difference (less than 1 percentage point) between Trump’s share of absentee ballots cast in Fulton and other counties. Trump’s share of absentee ballots also matched up closely with his share of in-person votes across the precincts, no matter which county they lay in.

However, redoing the same test for 2020 shows something quite different (see Table 2). Trump’s percentage of absentee votes was now lower in Fulton county border precincts than in the precincts just across the street in neighboring counties. Trump’s share was 7.19 percentage points lower on the Fulton county side, and the difference was also statistically significant at the 7% level for a two-tailed t-test.

This is not likely to have been caused by the general shift to absentee voting among Democrats, because the study controlled for in-person voting. In layman’s terms, in precincts with alleged fraud, Trump’s proportion of absentee votes was depressed –even when such precincts had similar in-person Trump vote shares to their surrounding countries. The fact that the shift happens only in absentee ballots, and when a country line is crossed, is suspicious.


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31 Dec 2020, 9:35 am

Mikah wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
Did we even read that far, or was this a strategic omission?


I was aware. I have posted rebuttals or reasonable sounding explanations for election anomalies where I have found them, especially in my mod-murdered election thread. If you prefer I can just post Trump's tweets next time around.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 1336712199


Wow he's still going at it.



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31 Dec 2020, 10:07 am

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