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kraftiekortie
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27 Aug 2022, 11:38 am

There’s nothing wrong with being Woke (awake to what’s going on).

All I’m saying is that there are people who go too far with it, just like the MAGAS go too far with their thing.

I don’t like it when people make assumptions about me. They don’t know me.



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27 Aug 2022, 12:01 pm

I like the idea of being awake to my own ignorance and then doing something about it to improve.


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League_Girl
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27 Aug 2022, 1:30 pm

I looked up Karen White and only got the author. I decided to try "Karen white case" and got different results.


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27 Aug 2022, 1:42 pm

When people talk about all white people being racist, they mean our racial color blindness and our naivity about skin color. We can all say something that is insensitive towards Race or another culture because society here is built around white supremacy and not everyone realizes it. It's a matter of ignorance. People of color know its not our fault but they want us to educate ourselves and listen.

Looking back, I realize I said things that were racist because of my own lack of understanding. One if them was about hair policy in sports. A Native American at work called it discrimination when her son's school wanted him to cut his hair short. I told her it was a safety thing and it applies to all players. She still thought it was discrimination and i said it would be if everyone else were allowed to keep their long hair and he didn't. I even thought Natives used their culture as an excuse for special treatment. Cut your hair or dont play, this applies to everyone. Hair grows back.

Sadly many people think this way; it's just food, it's just clothes, it's just hair, etc. This is what white privilege does. I thought the sane way too. I saw everyone as equal and the same and we are all the same race. I saw skin color as hair color and different eye color. I didn't see culture. They try to teach this in school but I didn't really grasp it. Just saw that every country is different and people live different there, move there, you must live like then and this is the attitude many Americans have here about pur country. Move here, speak English, learn to eat our foods and talk and dress like us and follow our customs.

However when I see these issues get brought up, right wingers call it wokism. This makes me think so what is wrong with being aware and wanting to accommodate?


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babybird
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27 Aug 2022, 1:50 pm

League_Girl wrote:
I looked up Karen White and only got the author. I decided to try "Karen white case" and got different results.


Worrying stuff

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... der-prison

It's true that some females in female only facilities can be capable of physical and/or sexual assault on other residents.

I was sexually assaulted by a female in the women's toilets of a pub when I was 16 and for me it was just as bad as being assaulted by a man. The difference being though was that when I tried to tell a therapist about the assault I was laughed at and more or less made out to be a liar.

I'm not saying that trans people shouldn't be put in facilities in accordance with their gender identities but also there should be measures put in place to protect everybody.

You can't put at risk the safety of the majority in the process of attempting to do the right thing for the minority.

It feels like its quite a difficult balancing act.


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League_Girl
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27 Aug 2022, 1:58 pm

If a woman does sexual assault in prison, something should be done about it. If a woman keeps doing it, I believe in isolation because they are posing a danger to other inmates. It doesn't matter if they are trans or cis. Put them in isolation and keep them away from other inmates. Problem solved. No need to turn this into a debate about allowing trabs people in prison of the gender they identify with.


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babybird
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27 Aug 2022, 2:20 pm

League_Girl wrote:
If a woman does sexual assault in prison, something should be done about it. If a woman keeps doing it, I believe in isolation because they are posing a danger to other inmates. It doesn't matter if they are trans or cis. Put them in isolation and keep them away from other inmates. Problem solved. No need to turn this into a debate about allowing trabs people in prison of the gender they identify with.


It was already a point of debate.

But anyway, if I was being held in a prison cell with a trans woman who was sexually assaulting me I think that being all accepting about their gender identity would be the last thing on my mind.


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Last edited by babybird on 27 Aug 2022, 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

babybird
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27 Aug 2022, 2:32 pm

League_Girl wrote:
When people talk about all white people being racist, they mean our racial color blindness and our naivity about skin color. We can all say something that is insensitive towards Race or another culture because society here is built around white supremacy and not everyone realizes it. It's a matter of ignorance. People of color know its not our fault but they want us to educate ourselves and listen.

Looking back, I realize I said things that were racist because of my own lack of understanding. One if them was about hair policy in sports. A Native American at work called it discrimination when her son's school wanted him to cut his hair short. I told her it was a safety thing and it applies to all players. She still thought it was discrimination and i said it would be if everyone else were allowed to keep their long hair and he didn't. I even thought Natives used their culture as an excuse for special treatment. Cut your hair or dont play, this applies to everyone. Hair grows back.

Sadly many people think this way; it's just food, it's just clothes, it's just hair, etc. This is what white privilege does. I thought the sane way too. I saw everyone as equal and the same and we are all the same race. I saw skin color as hair color and different eye color. I didn't see culture. They try to teach this in school but I didn't really grasp it. Just saw that every country is different and people live different there, move there, you must live like then and this is the attitude many Americans have here about pur country. Move here, speak English, learn to eat our foods and talk and dress like us and follow our customs.

However when I see these issues get brought up, right wingers call it wokism. This makes me think so what is wrong with being aware and wanting to accommodate?


Thanks for this.

Yes people have their own histories and cultures and that is a far bigger thing than the colour of their skin.

I can all accepting of someone's colour but unless I learn to understand where they are coming from on a cultural level then I'm not fully understanding of who they are.

That's the point of diversity I think.


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League_Girl
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27 Aug 2022, 3:53 pm

babybird wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
If a woman does sexual assault in prison, something should be done about it. If a woman keeps doing it, I believe in isolation because they are posing a danger to other inmates. It doesn't matter if they are trans or cis. Put them in isolation and keep them away from other inmates. Problem solved. No need to turn this into a debate about allowing trabs people in prison of the gender they identify with.


It was already a point of debate.

But anyway, if I was being held in a prison cell with a trans woman who was sexually assaulting me I think that being all accepting about their gender identity would be the last thing on my mind.



They should be put in isolation. No need to justify transphobia and say trans women belong in a male prison, put them isolation.

I dont know why anybody can't see this.


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27 Aug 2022, 4:32 pm

Most people probably can see it.


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cyberdad
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27 Aug 2022, 6:38 pm

babybird wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
But the main idea is that classic western liberalism is inherently racist and has been from the get-go, so all vestiges of it need to be replaced. All American history needs to be re-understood in this context. It is a very Orwellian revolution in that the key technique is changing the meaning of words and terms so that the opponents can be labeled racist(or some other ist/phobic) no matter what they say and how they say it.


The establishment of western liberalism was not the "natural" evolution of the "superior" western mind in the age of the renaissance. This was always a myth. The renaissance philosophers, scientists, scholars and artists were members of the aristocracy and maintained a firm belief in casteism, servitude and nobility. They (of course) believed in the inherent superiority of Europeans. Not surprisingly the renaissance coincided with the rise of imperialism, military expansion, colonialism and slavery.

The roots of liberalism—fundemental belief in individual freedom, in the fundamental moral equality of individuals, in a legal system based on equality, and in a representative form of government befitting a society of free people—all these were pioneered by Christian thinkers of the Middle Ages who drew on the moral revolution carried out by the early Church. These philosophers and canon lawyers.

It is therefore not surprising that the revulsion toward popular conservative views in western democracies such as the superiority of the white man, the enslavement of humans and who opposed the subsequent emancipation of women and the poor began with revolutionary christians. Not the MAGA fake christians who Jesus would have reviled if he came back. Revolutionary christians who fought for the freedom of all people such as the quakers, jesuits and Pentecostals (other similar groups not only bought equality in western democracies but set up missionaries in colonial empires protecting the poor from exploitation, uplifting human rights, using donations to build hospitals and most importantly bringing education to poor village people. Many of the educational institutions in Asia were started by catholic and protestant missionaries.

So unfortunately your claims that institutions that have their roots in western liberalism believed in equality of all men and were not racist is a lie. The only people who protected the rights and subsequent emancipation of slaves and who fought in the trenches against organisation racism were christian groups.

I'm not even a practicing christian but I'm not ignorant of the contribution of christians in stamping out institutional racism . The founding fathers of America who built the foundations of democracy in America were actually evil. They were a product of their time and when they spoke of "free men" they defined human as European. So therefore the foundations of the institutions in western democracies are infact inherently racist. This is a fact and I am a little surprised why somebody as intelligent as yourself is so anxious to buy into this anti-woke crap to the extent you would re-invent history??


Thank you for this post Cyberdad.


Thanks BB. I was largely directing this at AS who is probably on par with me on historical knowledge but it might have strayed a little off topic



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27 Aug 2022, 6:54 pm

League_Girl wrote:
When people talk about all white people being racist, they mean our racial color blindness and our naivity about skin color. We can all say something that is insensitive towards Race or another culture because society here is built around white supremacy and not everyone realizes it. It's a matter of ignorance. People of color know its not our fault but they want us to educate ourselves and listen.


^^^ You are one of the few who get it.

The anti-woke mob are often the first to rush to the front of the line to talk about the importance of preserving heritage and knowing your history and where we come from in terms of western civilisation. They invoke freedom of speech to speak of the glories of Europe and its contributions to the world. I actually have no problem with any of this, Infact I enjoy discussing these very topics, Yet strangely those who claim to be conservative on this forum rarely (if ever) engage on topics of history or science or philosophy (I wonder if part of the problem is that there isn't a forum thread for these topics?)

Here in Australia when it comes to issues of genocide or respecting indigenous culture or underemployment of indigenous people (apparently the latest employment statistics still show indigenous people won't get picked for jobs despite a shortage of workers) there is a pretence that these issues don't exist. We have a saying that to be a true Australian that you need forgive and forget the bad things and not have a black armband view of history. I actually think the anti-woke mob also have this view in America. The problem with wearing rose-coloured glasses is that negates or diminishes the current problems minorities experience especially in facing institutional barriers in terms of social inclusion, education, jobs etc). Whether it be the disabled, LGBTQI, immigrants, indigenous or women saying uncaring and inflammatory things about these groups knowingly triggers people in these groups and only serves to further diminish their self-esteem. Amongst all this there is an attempt to re-write history so as to diminish historical wrongs and remove any small social benefits these groups receive.



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27 Aug 2022, 7:08 pm

League_Girl wrote:
When people talk about all white people being racist, they mean our racial color blindness and our naivity about skin color. We can all say something that is insensitive towards Race or another culture because society here is built around white supremacy and not everyone realizes it. It's a matter of ignorance. People of color know its not our fault but they want us to educate ourselves and listen.

Looking back, I realize I said things that were racist because of my own lack of understanding. One if them was about hair policy in sports. A Native American at work called it discrimination when her son's school wanted him to cut his hair short. I told her it was a safety thing and it applies to all players. She still thought it was discrimination and i said it would be if everyone else were allowed to keep their long hair and he didn't. I even thought Natives used their culture as an excuse for special treatment. Cut your hair or dont play, this applies to everyone. Hair grows back.

Sadly many people think this way; it's just food, it's just clothes, it's just hair, etc. This is what white privilege does. I thought the sane way too. I saw everyone as equal and the same and we are all the same race. I saw skin color as hair color and different eye color. I didn't see culture. They try to teach this in school but I didn't really grasp it. Just saw that every country is different and people live different there, move there, you must live like then and this is the attitude many Americans have here about pur country. Move here, speak English, learn to eat our foods and talk and dress like us and follow our customs.

However when I see these issues get brought up, right wingers call it wokism. This makes me think so what is wrong with being aware and wanting to accommodate?

Refreshing post from someone who understands.

Thanks, League_girl.


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27 Aug 2022, 10:32 pm

Majorities being unaware of what it is like to be a minority is being ignorant or being naive. It is not racism unless it is accompanied by the belief that the minority is inferior, fear or hate of the minority.

Wokes will argue language evolves, get on board, or get canceled. The implication is that the evolving process is natural. It is not. Having made such a big deal out of trigger words it strains credulity the wokes do not understand how much the words "racist" and "racism" are triggering.

It is the oldest political trick in the book to weaponize words with the intent of infuriating opponents to such a degree they will overreact and you can say "see I told you so". I have to grudgingly admit the wokes have done this brilliantly. By expanding the definition of racism to include all white people they leave no room for counterargument that is not racist by their definition. More importantly, many overreactions will fit the traditional definition of racism convincing non-ideologues.

Since I am giving credit to the wokes tonight :lol: at least the hardcore ones understand they are revolutiontionaries. This is in contrast to the MAGA's who think they are counterrevolutionaries when they are the opposite.


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28 Aug 2022, 2:49 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Wokes will argue language evolves, get on board, or get canceled. The implication is that the evolving process is natural. It is not. Having made such a big deal out of trigger words it strains credulity the wokes do not understand how much the words "racist" and "racism" are triggering..


Language has evolved in the past, it's currently evolving and will continue to evolve in the future. People have opportunity to learn to be inclusive. I need to enrol myself for LGBTQI training as I admit I don't have a good grasp of correct language use when it comes to pronouns/nouns for groups like trans.



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28 Aug 2022, 9:29 am

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Wokes will argue language evolves, get on board, or get canceled. The implication is that the evolving process is natural. It is not. Having made such a big deal out of trigger words it strains credulity the wokes do not understand how much the words "racist" and "racism" are triggering..


Language has evolved in the past, it's currently evolving and will continue to evolve in the future. People have opportunity to learn to be inclusive. I need to enrol myself for LGBTQI training as I admit I don't have a good grasp of correct language use when it comes to pronouns/nouns for groups like trans.

People have busy lives, it is unreasonable to expect people to know dozens of pronouns and to fit the people with their preferred pronouns. I could be wrong but “non-binary” should cover it. You can not go wrong by using the person’s name.


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