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waltur
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16 Nov 2010, 2:59 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
If you want to get in a serious debate over whether or not Jesus existed start another topic. You are again trying to derail the topic.


what was the topic again?


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Vince
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16 Nov 2010, 3:24 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
If you want to get in a serious debate over whether or not Jesus existed start another topic. You are again trying to derail the topic.

You're the one trying to derail the topic by claiming that there is enough evidence to conclusively verify that Jesus existed.

But alright, let's get back to the topic at hand. You making the claim that atheism is a threat to freedom. How?


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16 Nov 2010, 3:28 pm

Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
If you want to get in a serious debate over whether or not Jesus existed start another topic. You are again trying to derail the topic.

You're the one trying to derail the topic by claiming that there is enough evidence to conclusively verify that Jesus existed.

But alright, let's get back to the topic at hand. You making the claim that atheism is a threat to freedom. How?


He laid it out thusly (and I'm paraphrasing for the sake of clarity and precision):

"Atheism threatens freedom by denying a Cosmic Santa Claus who wrote down all the rules and RIGHTS we get. If there ain't a list of freedoms cosmically written down somewhere - like in make-believe heaven or on one of the Moon's craters - then THEY DON'T EXIST. Atheism, thusly, claims THEY DON'T EXIST!! !!"


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Inuyasha
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16 Nov 2010, 3:29 pm

Stop trying to throw it back on me I'm not the one trying to bash every other religion in order to distract from the issue.

You claim that you would protest an unjust law, but why would you how can you say whether or not something is unjust.



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16 Nov 2010, 3:38 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Stop trying to throw it back on me I'm not the one trying to bash every other religion in order to distract from the issue.

You claim that you would protest an unjust law, but why would you how can you say whether or not something is unjust.


By analyzing its implications for human flourishing.


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16 Nov 2010, 3:42 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Stop trying to throw it back on me I'm not the one trying to bash every other religion in order to distract from the issue.

You claim that you would protest an unjust law, but why would you how can you say whether or not something is unjust.


By analyzing its implications for human flourishing.


Which can be argued both ways, that is the danger of moral relativism.



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16 Nov 2010, 3:44 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Stop trying to throw it back on me I'm not the one trying to bash every other religion in order to distract from the issue.

You claim that you would protest an unjust law, but why would you how can you say whether or not something is unjust.


By analyzing its implications for human flourishing.


Which can be argued both ways, that is the danger of moral relativism.


I really don't see that as a big problem, especially comparative to the "best alternative" you offer: cherry-picking parts of the Bible that coalign with our civilly libertarian, post-Enlightenment moral consensus. And while there are "borderline" cases, I think it's pretty safe to say that a society like Nazi Germany has a lot less human flourishing in the long-term than a country like modern-day Norway.


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16 Nov 2010, 4:03 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Stop trying to throw it back on me I'm not the one trying to bash every other religion in order to distract from the issue.

You claim that you would protest an unjust law, but why would you how can you say whether or not something is unjust.

Finally a real question instead of an accusation! About time. Although you did forget the question mark, but I'll let that slide.
Okay, let me answer this question simply:
I have a brain. It has the ability to - all on its own - detect things that are unjust. It doesn't need some magic list of commandments in order to have a concept of fairness.
We are all people. The idea that we are all equal is pretty easy to come up with, seeing as how we are all people. People equals people. Therefore it would be unfair of me to treat other people as though they were of less value than myself.
My face is my face. Therefore it is a reasonable request for me to make, that I not be punched in it. And by logical extention of that exact same thought, I don't go around punching people in their faces. Because those aren't my faces, and it's not my place to punch them.
This is stuff that anyone can figure out. And from these very simple thoughts, complex moral codes can be formed.
Someone punches me in the face even though I don't punch people in the face? Clearly unjust. I don't need a god to tell me that.
Two consenting adults can get married if they are of opposite genders but not if they are of the same gender? Clearly unjust. It makes no difference what any god might say about it.
See what I'm saying? I don't need the guidance of an ancient ghost who is rumored to exist and whose supposed opinions are clearly unjust. I've got the capacity for morality in my very own brain. As do you, which is why you keep insisting that the things God said in the Old Testament don't count even though Jesus (according to the New Testament) said they do. I didn't bring that up to attack Christianity. I brought it up as an example of where you can use your very own brain to see that the text is unjust. Killing a child for cursing his parents? We both know that's an overreaction, but in the text, both God and Jesus are clearly for it. You might say that the text isn't an accurate representation of the real God/Jesus, but on what grounds would you be saying that? Obviously on the grounds that you know that it's wrong to kill a child, and God and Jesus are too good to really have said such a thing, so it must be a misprint or something. But where are you getting this idea of it being bad to kill children from? Clearly not from God and Jesus as described in the text, since they are (according to the text) the ones saying that you should kill children.
Though of course, I'm not sure if you'd say any of that. I guess I'll end on some questions. This isn't an attack, I'm making a point about morality not coming from religion.
1: Should you kill a child who cursed his/her parents?
2: If not, how do you know that you shouldn't?


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16 Nov 2010, 7:23 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Stop trying to throw it back on me I'm not the one trying to bash every other religion in order to distract from the issue.

You claim that you would protest an unjust law, but why would you how can you say whether or not something is unjust.


By analyzing its implications for human flourishing.


Which can be argued both ways, that is the danger of moral relativism.


I really don't see that as a big problem, especially comparative to the "best alternative" you offer: cherry-picking parts of the Bible that coalign with our civilly libertarian, post-Enlightenment moral consensus. And while there are "borderline" cases, I think it's pretty safe to say that a society like Nazi Germany has a lot less human flourishing in the long-term than a country like modern-day Norway.

Yep, you use the same kind of rebuttal I do. No theory of basic "theism" that goes in line with the Enlightenment values really is out there and provides a secure authority is out there. There are only the Judeo-Christian religions, and most of them have these flaws that completely stand in the way of our values.



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16 Nov 2010, 10:02 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Stop trying to throw it back on me I'm not the one trying to bash every other religion in order to distract from the issue.

You claim that you would protest an unjust law, but why would you how can you say whether or not something is unjust.


Why do you think we don't stone people for petty offenses anymore?

There are lots of rules in the bible that we do not follow (because they are unjust).



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16 Nov 2010, 10:44 pm

Ambrose_Rotten wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Stop trying to throw it back on me I'm not the one trying to bash every other religion in order to distract from the issue.

You claim that you would protest an unjust law, but why would you how can you say whether or not something is unjust.


Why do you think we don't stone people for petty offenses anymore?

There are lots of rules in the bible that we do not follow (because they are unjust).


But it seems to be okay to fire someone because they happen to have a Christian Pin.

This same business actively supports Gay Pride.

Google Home Depot.



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16 Nov 2010, 11:49 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Ambrose_Rotten wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Stop trying to throw it back on me I'm not the one trying to bash every other religion in order to distract from the issue.

You claim that you would protest an unjust law, but why would you how can you say whether or not something is unjust.


Why do you think we don't stone people for petty offenses anymore?

There are lots of rules in the bible that we do not follow (because they are unjust).


But it seems to be okay to fire someone because they happen to have a Christian Pin.

This same business actively supports Gay Pride.

Google Home Depot.


You're ignoring all of the "vice-versa" scenarios. In the past couple weeks, 3 people on my campus were assaulted for wearing "legalize gay" t-shirts.



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16 Nov 2010, 11:57 pm

As a Christian I will say assaulting people whom are wearing Gay Pride Tee Shirts isn't appropriate to say the least either. I don't approve of it on a personal level and am against Gay Marriage, but assaulting people over a tee shirt is stupid.



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17 Nov 2010, 12:12 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Vince wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
For starters Jesus did exist, there is enough evidence to verify that outside of the Bible.

Last I checked, there wasn't. Please supply this evidence of which you speak. Sources, please.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

Also you can look for Case for Christ.


NO!

I am PISSED at your bait and switch tactics. You said you had roman documentation collaborating biblical accounts and then you offer this biblical analysis? Produce what you claimed con man! This is exactly the same thing that happens any time one of you apologists claim extra-biblical evidence. Every time, its just a lame attempt at a shell game.

You suck. You apparently cannot substantiate your claims. You know whats ironic? I am perfectly willing to accept that a preacher named Jesus was running around Israel 2000 years ago. That doesnt mean I would think hes divine, but I was excited at the tantalizing prospect of learning more history.


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17 Nov 2010, 2:55 am

As an atheist, I will say that firing someone for wearing a discrete, non-offensive (as opposed to the 'you're going to hell!) type) Christian pin is silly.



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17 Nov 2010, 3:28 am

The profitability of a corporation does not abrogate the rights of an individual to freedom of speech, expression or thought. No one should be fired for being a Christian.


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