Horror of Abortion!

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the minute this thread was started it had left all pretense of dealing with reality behind.

they always do when dealing with abortion, but you are right legality really doesnt matter,
with no viable option thye would choose less safe alternatives, or go somewhere where they can get an abortion.

But since you asked yeah I got nothing against Universal Health Care. I like the NHS. I think people are a bit tardy about making it efficient though. As for welfare for children what do you mean? You mean making sure children aren't bullied by their parents? Well sure, I mean I like Childline for that. I don't mind UK social services doing its job in moving babies or children from abusive parents, although again people whinge so much about public services being inefficient that they don't actually try to make it more efficient.

Generally I prefer progressive taxation, a moderate sales tax and as low as possible corporation taxes to balance the budget.

My belief is that when it comes to capitalism corporation taxes get in the way of investment, especially for small companies who otherwise live on a knife edge,

whilst progressive taxation sticks the middle finger up at rich people who want to make a personal empire that s**ts on society. That and bugger huge bonuses. It's just tax avoidance. Who the hell gives guys in London big bonuses anyway? Where are they going to go if you don't? New York? Good luck avoiding the protester's wrath. Hong Kong? Have fun avoiding the inflation from China.

One thing I really, really hate is the subsidy the EU gives to farmer's produce. Lower it at least. The Milk tariff for milk not in the EU is effectively 1000%. That's totally damn stupid. And the only damned reason why anyone objects to my opinion is some pseudo-racist remark that foreign produce will suck and kill you. Maybe in a polluted pool in China, but it wont be in the middle of Nigeria.

yes, this is true. if the pregnancy is unwanted and legal abortion is not an option, there are other ways.

women used to pass on this information on to each other, or the midwife (or herbalist) was a fairly reliable source. i happen to know quite a lot of herblore, and it is easy to obtain information as to which plants are abortifacients. not to mention the well-known mechanical means. they are not 100% reliable though, and some put the mother's life at risk, but it is a risk that some women have felt necessary.

people have the mistaken impression that women would make it publicly known or something when they do this. there are no statistics that cover how many "miscarriages" are actually abortions.

this is not an exclusively modern thing - my own grandmother gave herself about a dozen abortions. the modern part is that lawmakers think they actually hold power over what a pregnant woman does with her body. people can argue about what should be the law, but really they are not deciding whether abortions will happen; they are deciding how safe the result will be.

i have my own opinions that i am not going to discuss here, but ultimately i think it is important for people to know they are fruitlessly debating policy while women actually decide for themselves.

women used to pass on this information on to each other, or the midwife (or herbalist) was a fairly reliable source. i happen to know quite a lot of herblore, and it is easy to obtain information as to which plants are abortifacients. not to mention the well-known mechanical means. they are not 100% reliable though, and some put the mother's life at risk, but it is a risk that some women have felt necessary

This would appear to be a moderate-to-liberal viewpoint.

Also a conservative position.

I'll admit I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you for or against progressive income taxation?

This would also seem to be a conservative position.

People are going to murder people anyways, are you suggesting that murder should be legalized cause people are going to do it anyways.

Pro-life means that pregnant women get more welfare.

Interestingly your position conforms to a well known myth. We do know (and this can be found rather easily through google) that the vast majority of illegal abortions were carried out by trained medical personnel. They were called back alley abortions not because of where they took place but because of the enterence women had to take into facilities.

The reason for the increase in the safety of abortion for women can be mainly attributed to the development of sterilization tequniques and antibiotics. The vast reduction of deaths from abortion actually took place before legalization; hence number5, safe and legal certainly are not the same thing. Both facts can also be discovered in the studies I provided.

That still doesn't make abortion right or mean it should be legal.

People are going to murder people anyways, are you suggesting that murder should be legalized cause people are going to do it anyways.

the sum total off all the women saved does not equal the amount of children killed in an average year.

Anti-Abortion Laws Do Not Deter Women from Seeking Them, Study Finds

Friday, October 12, 2007

Women are just as likely to get an abortion in countries where it is outlawed as they are in countries where it is legal, according to research published Friday.

In a study examining abortion trends from 1995 to 2003, experts also found that abortion rates are virtually equal in rich and poor countries, and that half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe.

The study was done by Gilda Sedgh of the Guttmacher Institute in the United States and colleagues from the World Health Organization. It was published in an edition of The Lancet medical journal devoted to maternal health.

"The legal status of abortion has never dissuaded women and couples, who, for whatever reason, seek to end pregnancy," Beth Fredrick of the International Women's Health Coalition in the U.S. said in an accompanying commentary.

Abortion accounts for 13 percent of maternal mortality worldwide. About 70,000 women die every year from unsafe abortions. An additional 5 million women suffer permanent or temporary injury.

"The continuing high incidence of unsafe abortion in developing countries represents a public health crisis and a human rights atrocity," Fredrick wrote.

The number of worldwide abortions has dipped from about 46 million in 1995 to just under 42 million in 2003. But there was no change in the rate of unsafe abortions; nearly half the procedures are still performed illegally in potentially dangerous conditions.

"The only way to decrease unsafe abortion is to increase contraception," said Sharon Camp, president and chief executive officer of the Guttmacher Institute.

Camp said that more countries are allowing women to have abortions legally, but many women only receive medical attention after a procedure has gone wrong. "I don't think women should have to hurt themselves before they get medical treatment," she said.

The vast majority of abortions — 35 million — were in the developing world. And nearly 97 percent of all unsafe abortions were in poor countries. Worldwide, one in five pregnancies ends in abortion.

The study defined unsafe abortions as those performed either by people lacking the necessary skills or in an environment that does not conform to minimum medical standards.

In eastern Europe, there are more abortions than live births: 105 abortions for every 100 live births, the research found. In Western Europe, there are 23 abortions for every 100 live births.

In North America, there are 33 abortions for every 100 live births, while in Africa, where abortion is illegal in most countries, there are 17 abortions for every 100 live births.

Improving women's health, experts said, means improving access to safe abortions. Some experts criticized the restrictions that often come with donor money. Funds from the U.S. government, for example, cannot be used in any health services associated with abortion.

Because providing safe abortions depends on a working health care system, experts said tackling the problem is difficult.

In related papers published in The Lancet this week, experts said there has been little improvement in helping women survive pregnancy and childbirth in the last two decades, particularly in the world's poorest countries.

Unlike improving child health, which can be done relatively easily by things like immunizing children against various diseases, "you can't give women a pill for obstetric complications," said Ann Starrs, executive vice president for Family Care International in the U.S., who was not linked to the study.

Competing with other health issues for limited health dollars is also a problem.

"Donors love to distribute bed nets for malaria because it's simple to do and it's easy to show the progress you've made," said Dr. Lale Say, a WHO maternal health expert. "But unfortunately for women's health, there is no single strategy that will work everywhere."

New Estimates from WHO

• 21.6 million unsafe abortions occurred in 2008.

• IThe highest rates—36 per 1,000 women—were in Eastern and Middle Africa.

• Between 2003 and 2008, the global unsafe abortion rate was unchanged at 14 per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years.

Sp what is more liberal?




In the USA these would be considered conservative positions.

Also a conservative position.

I'll admit I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you for or against progressive income taxation?

This would also seem to be a conservative position.

If only unborn humans were baby animals, the liberals would want to repeal abortion. But babies are human, so it's okay. You're being green, after all. What's murder when compared to RECYCLING!

I totally object to the Holocaust occuring...but abortionists, c'mon, you GOTTA want them in those ovens. Especially George "Tiller the Baby Killer" -- 50,000 dead at his hand. 'Tis only fair.

Fine. I fail at reading comprehension.

Maybe i just find your communication repugnant.