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GGPViper
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08 Aug 2013, 5:29 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
you are looking at it the wrong way:

Quote:
Findings are reported exclusively for Muslims; however, the survey is based on national samples that did not screen out non-Muslims, except in Thailand, where a sample of only Muslims was fielded in five southern provinces.

No, I am *not* looking at it in the wrong way. *You* claimed the following:

sonofghandi wrote:
There is no way to tell what percentage of the voluntarily disclosed opinions even came from Muslims.

As the findings only include the opinions of Muslims, your concerns are invalid by definition.



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08 Aug 2013, 5:31 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
I have never said they were not biased. I have only been trying to say that some of the ridiculous stereotypes floating around this forum about Muslims are as twisted as those that some Muslim extremists spew out.

You do realize that you are only taking a few passages out of a huge work. The same can be done to Christian texts (see above).
And by the way, if you want to take selected portions of Mohammed's life and works into these arguments, you might as well let in the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, slavery in the US, and any other bit of Christian atrocity that no one left alive is witness to.


I don't care they're a few fragments in the book. If some guy states 30 commandements and one of them is 'kill the jews', I don't need to know which are the other 29 to say that this guy is a psychopath. 'Hey, one commandment of 30 is a small part of it'. I don't care. I don't care which the other 29 are. This guy is telling you 'kill'. And those are the foundations of the moral of islam.

And nope, it's not the same with the Bible. Of course, you can finde some crazy s**t in the Old Testament. But the Old Testament is at the bottom place when it comes to the Bible. What matters over all is what Jesus said. After Jesus you have the rest of the New Testament. And only after that you have the old testament. I remember when I had religion back in the school days, we even didn't see the Old Testament. 99% of time classes were about the New Testament. If something in the old testament contradicts Jesus' message, what Jesus said rules. Period. It's called christianism, that comes from Christ. And guess what? Jesus' message is basically peaceful.

So no, it's not the same. What I posted from the Q'uran is at the top place of islamic morality. What you posted from the Old Testament can be dismissed since Jesus' message and the New Testament implies otherwise.


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08 Aug 2013, 5:38 pm

Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
I have never said they were not biased. I have only been trying to say that some of the ridiculous stereotypes floating around this forum about Muslims are as twisted as those that some Muslim extremists spew out.

You do realize that you are only taking a few passages out of a huge work. The same can be done to Christian texts (see above).
And by the way, if you want to take selected portions of Mohammed's life and works into these arguments, you might as well let in the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, slavery in the US, and any other bit of Christian atrocity that no one left alive is witness to.


I don't care they're a few fragments in the book. If some guy states 30 commandements and one of them is 'kill the jews', I don't need to know which are the other 29 to say that this guy is a psychopath. 'Hey, one commandment of 30 is a small part of it'. I don't care. I don't care which the other 29 are. This guy is telling you 'kill'. And those are the foundations of the moral of islam.

And nope, it's not the same with the Bible. Of course, you can finde some crazy sh** in the Old Testament. But the Old Testament is at the bottom place when it comes to the Bible. What matters over all is what Jesus said. After Jesus you have the rest of the New Testament. And only after that you have the old testament. I remember when I had religion back in the school days, we even didn't see the Old Testament. 99% of time classes were about the New Testament. If something in the old testament contradicts Jesus' message, what Jesus said rules. Period. It's called christianism, that comes from Christ. And guess what? Jesus' message is basically peaceful.

So no, it's not the same. What I posted from the Q'uran is at the top place of islamic morality. What you posted from the Old Testament can be dismissed since Jesus' message and the New Testament implies otherwise.


If you want to talk about what Jesus stood for, start thinking about the speck and plank, throwing the first stone, and loving thine enemies.


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08 Aug 2013, 5:40 pm

GGPViper wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
you are looking at it the wrong way:

Quote:
Findings are reported exclusively for Muslims; however, the survey is based on national samples that did not screen out non-Muslims, except in Thailand, where a sample of only Muslims was fielded in five southern provinces.

No, I am *not* looking at it in the wrong way. *You* claimed the following:

sonofghandi wrote:
There is no way to tell what percentage of the voluntarily disclosed opinions even came from Muslims.

As the findings only include the opinions of Muslims, your concerns are invalid by definition.


Quote:
however, the survey is based on national samples that did not screen out non-Muslims, except in Thailand, where a sample of only Muslims was fielded in five southern provinces.


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08 Aug 2013, 5:45 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
I have never said they were not biased. I have only been trying to say that some of the ridiculous stereotypes floating around this forum about Muslims are as twisted as those that some Muslim extremists spew out.

You do realize that you are only taking a few passages out of a huge work. The same can be done to Christian texts (see above).
And by the way, if you want to take selected portions of Mohammed's life and works into these arguments, you might as well let in the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, slavery in the US, and any other bit of Christian atrocity that no one left alive is witness to.


I don't care they're a few fragments in the book. If some guy states 30 commandements and one of them is 'kill the jews', I don't need to know which are the other 29 to say that this guy is a psychopath. 'Hey, one commandment of 30 is a small part of it'. I don't care. I don't care which the other 29 are. This guy is telling you 'kill'. And those are the foundations of the moral of islam.

And nope, it's not the same with the Bible. Of course, you can finde some crazy sh** in the Old Testament. But the Old Testament is at the bottom place when it comes to the Bible. What matters over all is what Jesus said. After Jesus you have the rest of the New Testament. And only after that you have the old testament. I remember when I had religion back in the school days, we even didn't see the Old Testament. 99% of time classes were about the New Testament. If something in the old testament contradicts Jesus' message, what Jesus said rules. Period. It's called christianism, that comes from Christ. And guess what? Jesus' message is basically peaceful.

So no, it's not the same. What I posted from the Q'uran is at the top place of islamic morality. What you posted from the Old Testament can be dismissed since Jesus' message and the New Testament implies otherwise.


If you want to talk about what Jesus stood for, start thinking about the speck and plank, throwing the first stone, and loving thine enemies.


And what's wrong with it?


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08 Aug 2013, 5:50 pm

Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
If you want to talk about what Jesus stood for, start thinking about the speck and plank, throwing the first stone, and loving thine enemies.

And what's wrong with it?


Nothing is wrong with it. I just feel like there are some teachings of Christ that should modify your somewhat bigoted and judgmental ramblings.


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08 Aug 2013, 5:56 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Let's see... Here are several translations of 9:5 from quran.com:

Sahih International: And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Pickthall: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Yusuf Ali: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Shakir: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Muhammad Sarwar: When the sacred months are over, slay the pagans wherever you find them. Capture, besiege, and ambush them. If they repent, perform prayers and pay the religious tax, set them free. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.

Mohsin Khan: Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Arberry: Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

I stand corrected, it would seem. I apologize for my sloppiness.


And can you provide me with a list of countries that enforce these as law?


Here are five (now obviously, they can't enforce them in *practice* because that would reduce them to a pile of radioactive rubble).

Yemen:

Article 3 of the Constitution:
Islamic Shari’ah is the source of all legislation.

Source:
http://www.refworld.org/docid/3fc4c1e94.html

Pakistan:

Article 227 of the Constitution:
All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy
Quran and Sunnah, in this Part referred to as the Injunctions of Islam, and no law
shall be enacted which is repugnant to such Injunctions.

Source:
http://punjablaws.punjab.gov.pk/public/ ... AN.doc.pdf

Iran:

Article 2, section 1, of the Constitution:

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:
1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;

Source:
http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-inf ... ion-1.html

Saudi Arabia:

Article 1 of the Constitution:
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a sovereign Arab Islamic State. Its religion is Islam. Its constitution is Almighty God's Book, The Holy Qur'an, and the Sunna (Traditions) of the Prophet (PBUH). Arabic is the language of the Kingdom. The City of Riyadh is the capital.

Source:
http://www.saudiembassy.net/about/count ... nance.aspx

United Arab Emirates:

Article 7 of the Constitution:
Islam is the official religion of the Union. The Islamic
Shari'ah shall be a main source of legislation in the Union. The
official language of the Union is Arabic.

Source:
http://www.refworld.org/docid/48eca8132.html



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08 Aug 2013, 5:57 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
If you want to talk about what Jesus stood for, start thinking about the speck and plank, throwing the first stone, and loving thine enemies.

And what's wrong with it?


Nothing is wrong with it. I just feel like there are some teachings of Christ that should modify your somewhat bigoted and judgmental ramblings.


And more ad hominem. Do you have something to support your points besides that?


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08 Aug 2013, 5:58 pm

GGPViper wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Let's see... Here are several translations of 9:5 from quran.com:

Sahih International: And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Pickthall: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Yusuf Ali: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Shakir: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Muhammad Sarwar: When the sacred months are over, slay the pagans wherever you find them. Capture, besiege, and ambush them. If they repent, perform prayers and pay the religious tax, set them free. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.

Mohsin Khan: Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Arberry: Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

I stand corrected, it would seem. I apologize for my sloppiness.


And can you provide me with a list of countries that enforce these as law?


Here are five (now obviously, they can't enforce them in *practice* because that would reduce them to a pile of radioactive rubble).

Yemen:

Article 3 of the Constitution:
Islamic Shari’ah is the source of all legislation.

Source:
http://www.refworld.org/docid/3fc4c1e94.html

Pakistan:

Article 227 of the Constitution:
All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy
Quran and Sunnah, in this Part referred to as the Injunctions of Islam, and no law
shall be enacted which is repugnant to such Injunctions.

Source:
http://punjablaws.punjab.gov.pk/public/ ... AN.doc.pdf

Iran:

Article 2, section 1, of the Constitution:

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:
1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;

Source:
http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-inf ... ion-1.html

Saudi Arabia:

Article 1 of the Constitution:
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a sovereign Arab Islamic State. Its religion is Islam. Its constitution is Almighty God's Book, The Holy Qur'an, and the Sunna (Traditions) of the Prophet (PBUH). Arabic is the language of the Kingdom. The City of Riyadh is the capital.

Source:
http://www.saudiembassy.net/about/count ... nance.aspx

United Arab Emirates:

Article 7 of the Constitution:
Islam is the official religion of the Union. The Islamic
Shari'ah shall be a main source of legislation in the Union. The
official language of the Union is Arabic.

Source:
http://www.refworld.org/docid/48eca8132.html


OK, let me rephrase:
Can you find any country that has the specific laws on killing in the national law.


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08 Aug 2013, 5:59 pm

Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
If you want to talk about what Jesus stood for, start thinking about the speck and plank, throwing the first stone, and loving thine enemies.

And what's wrong with it?


Nothing is wrong with it. I just feel like there are some teachings of Christ that should modify your somewhat bigoted and judgmental ramblings.


And more ad hominem. Do you have something to support your points besides that?


Do you?


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08 Aug 2013, 6:02 pm

GGPViper wrote:
This is an unsubstantiated one-liner. Are you taking lessons from nominalist?


Fascinating. You mean, unlike your copy-and-paste faux scholarship?


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08 Aug 2013, 6:05 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
If you want to talk about what Jesus stood for, start thinking about the speck and plank, throwing the first stone, and loving thine enemies.

And what's wrong with it?


Nothing is wrong with it. I just feel like there are some teachings of Christ that should modify your somewhat bigoted and judgmental ramblings.


And more ad hominem. Do you have something to support your points besides that?


Do you?


Dude, how many times do I have to paste the fragments. Did you read them?

Well, in case you're a bit absentminded, I copy again:


Quran
Quran (2:191-193) And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.
Quran (2:216) Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it.
Quran (3:151) Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority
Quran (4:104) And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain...
Quran (5:33) The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned
Quran (9:14) Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace...
Quran (9:29) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth
Quran (17:16) And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.

Hadith
Bukhari (52:256) The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).
Bukhari (52:220) Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'
Bukhari (11:626) I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.
Tabari 9:69 Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us
Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power."
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992 Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.
Saifur Rahman, The Sealed Nectar p.227-228 Embrace Islam... If you two accept Islam, you will remain in command of your country; but if your refuse my Call, you’ve got to remember that all of your possessions are perishable. My horsemen will appropriate your land, and my Prophethood will assume preponderance over your kingship.


Besides that, I linked a video that describes the kind of person that was Mohammad, who is the model of behavior for muslims.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giiapwYL2U8[/youtube]


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08 Aug 2013, 6:12 pm

Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
Greb wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
If you want to talk about what Jesus stood for, start thinking about the speck and plank, throwing the first stone, and loving thine enemies.

And what's wrong with it?


Nothing is wrong with it. I just feel like there are some teachings of Christ that should modify your somewhat bigoted and judgmental ramblings.


And more ad hominem. Do you have something to support your points besides that?


Do you?


Dude, how many times do I have to paste the fragments. Did you read them?


Yes I have. Your posts are full of things taken out of context, some conspiracy theory level conjecture, some sources that openly anti-Muslim, a bunch of anecdotal crap, and your fair share of random proclamations and insults.

I am here to provide a voice of opposition to someone who (I'm guessing) knows very few (if any) actual Muslims. You seem to be here to provide more fuel to the religious zealots that end up using it to fuel your brash generalizations.

And just for the record, sharia law only means law that is based on scripture, not enacting every portion of the text in a literal fashion.


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08 Aug 2013, 6:23 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
Yes I have. Your posts are full of things taken out of context, some conspiracy theory level conjecture, some sources that openly anti-Muslim, a bunch of anecdotal crap, and your fair share of random proclamations and insults.


Those are commandments. Q'uran doens't establish a context, like 'only kill jews if...'. Nope. It just says 'do that'.

Context? What context? What prevents them from being mandatory nowadays?

They're specific commandments. Why they're not valid?

Arguments.

sonofghandi wrote:
I am here to provide a voice of opposition to someone who (I'm guessing) knows very few (if any) actual Muslims. You seem to be here to provide more fuel to the religious zealots that end up using it to fuel your brash generalizations.


And more ad hominem.

sonofghandi wrote:
And just for the record, sharia law only means law that is based on scripture, not enacting every portion of the text in a literal fashion.


Q'uran and Hadith. Focus. Don't jump to another thing.

I repete: why they're not valid as a source of islamic precepts?


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08 Aug 2013, 6:24 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
OK, let me rephrase: Can you find any country that has the specific laws on killing in the national law.


Technically speaking, all of the above. By making Sharia the source of the constitution, Q 9:5 (as it is a Qur'anic verse) supersedes national law. Last time I checked, for instance, Saudi Arabia doesn't even have a written penal code.



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08 Aug 2013, 6:25 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
And just for the record, sharia law only means law that is based on scripture, not enacting every portion of the text in a literal fashion.


Yes, exactly. Literally, al-Šarīʿa is the path or the prescription.


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