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Velociraptor
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12 Apr 2012, 9:05 pm

Dox47 wrote:
webcam wrote:
So yeah ban that sh** and make everyone quit. We'll save more money than we raise in taxes. No more death industries.


Because that worked so well with alcohol in the '20s and drugs from the '30s onward?


Would you seriously shoot someone over cigarettes? Do they make you feel that good?



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12 Apr 2012, 9:13 pm

webcam wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
webcam wrote:
So yeah ban that sh** and make everyone quit. We'll save more money than we raise in taxes. No more death industries.


Because that worked so well with alcohol in the '20s and drugs from the '30s onward?


Would you seriously shoot someone over cigarettes? Do they make you feel that good?


What he means is that prohibition didn't work because people still wanted alcohol and people would sell cigarettes illgeally if smoking was ever to be banned all together.



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12 Apr 2012, 9:15 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Aside from that, yeah, leave smokers alone. If they're not blowing smoke at you then they're not harming anyone but themselves and that's their personal choice. It's not like banning it would ever work anyway.


Plus, if I'm remembering my history correctly, they tried this already; when tobacco first started coming to Europe, attempts at banning it were made. These attempts failed miserably.


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12 Apr 2012, 9:18 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Aside from that, yeah, leave smokers alone. If they're not blowing smoke at you then they're not harming anyone but themselves and that's their personal choice. It's not like banning it would ever work anyway.


Plus, if I'm remembering my history correctly, they tried this already; when tobacco first started coming to Europe, attempts at banning it were made. These attempts failed miserably.


Yup also it would fail in the US.



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12 Apr 2012, 9:56 pm

webcam wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
webcam wrote:
So yeah ban that sh** and make everyone quit. We'll save more money than we raise in taxes. No more death industries.


Because that worked so well with alcohol in the '20s and drugs from the '30s onward?


Would you seriously shoot someone over cigarettes? Do they make you feel that good?


I'd be a lot more liable to shoot someone if I didn't have cigarettes, yes. They calm me down.


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13 Apr 2012, 7:23 am

abacacus wrote:
webcam wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
webcam wrote:
So yeah ban that sh** and make everyone quit. We'll save more money than we raise in taxes. No more death industries.


Because that worked so well with alcohol in the '20s and drugs from the '30s onward?


Would you seriously shoot someone over cigarettes? Do they make you feel that good?


I'd be a lot more liable to shoot someone if I didn't have cigarettes, yes. They calm me down.


In the USA, you do have a constitutional right to shoot someone, but no constitutional right to cigarettes.



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13 Apr 2012, 7:36 am

By the way, while losing ground in some of the wealthier countries, tobacco companies have been quite aggressive in bringing misery, death and addiction to poorer countries.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/opinion ... 55518.html

http://www.thewip.net/talk/2011/03/toba ... _up_i.html

http://www.globalissues.org/article/533/tobacco

Quote:
Tobacco and smoking have a number of negative effects:
•Tobacco smoking kills
•Tobacco exacerbates poverty
•Tobacco contributes to world hunger by diverting prime land away from food production
•Tobacco production damages the environment
•Tobacco reduces economic productivity
•While the Tobacco industry may employ people, this can be considered an example of “wasted labor”, capital and resources.

When governments and organizations have attempted to control tobacco (for example, where it is used, or how it is advertised), the tobacco industry uses its enormous resources to derail or weaken laws and agreements.
The world’s premier health organization, the World Health Organization (WHO) is quite blunt about the impacts of tobacco and smoking:
•Tobacco is the second major cause of death in the world.•It is currently responsible for the death of 1 in 10 adults
•It is the leading preventable causes of all deaths
•It kills Tobacco up to half of its regular users.
•In 2005, tobacco caused 5.4 million deaths (1 every 6 seconds)
•If current smoking patterns continue, it will cause some 8 million deaths each year by 2030
•Tobacco caused 100 million deaths in the 20th century.
•At current trends up to one billion will die in the 21st century.

•An estimated 1.3 billion people smoke
•84% of all smokers live in developing and transitional economy countries
•Most people start smoking before the age of 18; almost a quarter of these individuals begin using tobacco before the age of 10
•47.5% of all men smoke compared to 10.3% of women.

•Tobacco is the fourth most common risk factor for disease worldwide.
• Tobacco is deadly in any form or disguise: •Cigarettes, pipes, bidies, kreteks, clove cigarettes, snus, snuff, smokeless, cigars…
•Mild, light, low tar, full flavor, fruit flavored, chocolate flavored, natural, additive-free, organic cigarettes, PREPS (Potentially Reduced-Exposure Products), harm-reduced…

•An estimated 200,000 workers die every year due to exposure to smoke at work; The US Environmental Protection Agency estimates that second-hand smoke is responsible for about 3000 lung cancer deaths annually among non-smokers in the country.
• In 2000, fire caused by tobacco smoking caused •10% of all fire deaths
•300,000 deaths
•US$27 billion in costs



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13 Apr 2012, 10:45 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
By the way, while losing ground in some of the wealthier countries, tobacco companies have been quite aggressive in bringing misery, death and addiction to poorer countries.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/opinion ... 55518.html

http://www.thewip.net/talk/2011/03/toba ... _up_i.html

http://www.globalissues.org/article/533/tobacco

Quote:
Tobacco and smoking have a number of negative effects:
•Tobacco smoking kills
•Tobacco exacerbates poverty
•Tobacco contributes to world hunger by diverting prime land away from food production
•Tobacco production damages the environment
•Tobacco reduces economic productivity
•While the Tobacco industry may employ people, this can be considered an example of “wasted labor”, capital and resources.

-Lots of drugs including alcohol have a number of negative effects
-smoking cigarettes contributes to health conditions that can lead to death...so it's a factor in some peoples death but hardly the only one I imagine.
-Woah, hold on a minute what is to say the land they use for tobacco would actually be used for food if it wasn't for the tobacco? the truth is whoever buys the land would get to choose what to do with it, there is no garantee they would use it for growing food.
-I smoke cigarettes that are made in the U.S mostly, and are produced in places that don't cause any more damage than any other factories. I don't doubt the bigger tobacco comapanies don't care much for the environment or anything, but I prefer additive free tobacco anyways
-Also why is it wasted production and all that, there's only a demand for cigarettes because people are willing to buy them, if no one was then I am sure cigarette manufacturing would stop as there would be no consumers.


When governments and organizations have attempted to control tobacco (for example, where it is used, or how it is advertised), the tobacco industry uses its enormous resources to derail or weaken laws and agreements.
Big tobacco corporations behave like other large corporations?.......who would have guessed.

The world’s premier health organization, the World Health Organization (WHO) is quite blunt about the impacts of tobacco and smoking:
•Tobacco is the second major cause of death in the world.•It is currently responsible for the death of 1 in 10 adults
•It is the leading preventable causes of all deaths
•It kills Tobacco up to half of its regular users.
•In 2005, tobacco caused 5.4 million deaths (1 every 6 seconds)
•If current smoking patterns continue, it will cause some 8 million deaths each year by 2030
•Tobacco caused 100 million deaths in the 20th century.
•At current trends up to one billion will die in the 21st century.

They should really learn the difference between causation and contribution, I don't doubt that smoking cigarettes can contribute to health conditions that could relate in death. To claim cigarettes alone kill people is inaccurate....there are likely to be other factors including genetic pre-disposition for health conditions smoking contributes to, amount smoked there is probably some difference in a pack or more a day for 10 years and a couple cigarettes a day for 10 years for instance, also there is all kinds of disgusting crap in the air besides cigarette smoke.

How is it the leading preventable cause of all deaths? first we went to it causes death, now it causes all deaths?

Also I believe either way one billion will die in the 21st century regardless, life kills you know.



•An estimated 1.3 billion people smoke
•84% of all smokers live in developing and transitional economy countries
•Most people start smoking before the age of 18; almost a quarter of these individuals begin using tobacco before the age of 10
•47.5% of all men smoke compared to 10.3% of women.

•Tobacco is the fourth most common risk factor for disease worldwide.
• Tobacco is deadly in any form or disguise: •Cigarettes, pipes, bidies, kreteks, clove cigarettes, snus, snuff, smokeless, cigars…
•Mild, light, low tar, full flavor, fruit flavored, chocolate flavored, natural, additive-free, organic cigarettes, PREPS (Potentially Reduced-Exposure Products), harm-reduced…

•An estimated 200,000 workers die every year due to exposure to smoke at work; The US Environmental Protection Agency estimates that second-hand smoke is responsible for about 3000 lung cancer deaths annually among non-smokers in the country.
• In 2000, fire caused by tobacco smoking caused •10% of all fire deaths
•300,000 deaths
•US$27 billion in costs



So smoking is unhealthy, everyone knows that. Also how do they determine second hand smoke is responsible for that many cancer deaths of non-smokers, are they absolutely certain it was just cigarette smoke and not any of the other crap in the air? Why does the media and government always try to use scare tactics rather than just provide accurate information. I mean if smoking most definitely causes cancer in all cases, why doesn't my grandmother on my dads side or any of my other older smoking relatives have it?


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13 Apr 2012, 10:55 am

It's a right for people to smoke as long as they do it away from those they bother. Some are simply in denial that their smoke blows into others' faces, and that's pretty annoying and it's also inexcusable. As long as they take responsibility for their smoke (keep it away from non-smokers), it's their right. That said, we all know it's harmful to them, but it's still a personal decision and a right.


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13 Apr 2012, 11:50 am

Ragtime wrote:
It's a right for people to smoke as long as they do it away from those they bother. Some are simply in denial that their smoke blows into others' faces, and that's pretty annoying and it's also inexcusable. As long as they take responsibility for their smoke (keep it away from non-smokers), it's their right. That said, we all know it's harmful to them, but it's still a personal decision and a right.


However, unlike bearing arms and ordnance, this is not a Constitutional right, and may be abridged.

Anyway, as long as the Second Amendment protects me, particularly with the "Stand Your Ground!" rule: if smokers wish to risk annoying me, that is up to them. :wink:



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13 Apr 2012, 11:53 am

Ragtime wrote:
It's a right for people to smoke as long as they do it away from those they bother. Some are simply in denial that their smoke blows into others' faces, and that's pretty annoying and it's also inexcusable. As long as they take responsibility for their smoke (keep it away from non-smokers), it's their right. That said, we all know it's harmful to them, but it's still a personal decision and a right.


non-smokers should likewise not go out of their way to come near me if I am outside somewhere standing out of the way just so I can avoid blowing smoke in anyone's face. Just so they can give me a nasty look when they get smoke in their face cause they went out of their way to come towards the smoke.

It especially pisses me off with kids....like I'll go off in some corner away from where everyone is walking/hanging out at a store for instance and it never fails someone with toddlers always has to walk by right next to me when I'm bloody out of the way. It's like hello, I'm over here smoking a cigarette why don't you take your kids and use the main walkway like everyone else instead of going out of your way to come by me when I'm smoking.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 13 Apr 2012, 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

ArrantPariah
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13 Apr 2012, 11:54 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean if smoking most definitely causes cancer in all cases, why doesn't my grandmother on my dads side or any of my other older smoking relatives have it?


No-one claims that smoking most definitely causes cancer in all cases.

By the same token, a few elderly smokers who somehow beat the odds doesn't mean that smoking never caused cancer. Any more than claiming that one person winning the lottery means that everyone won the lottery.



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13 Apr 2012, 11:56 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean if smoking most definitely causes cancer in all cases, why doesn't my grandmother on my dads side or any of my other older smoking relatives have it?


No-one claims that smoking most definitely causes cancer in all cases.

By the same token, a few elderly smokers who somehow beat the odds doesn't mean that smoking never caused cancer. Any more than claiming that one person winning the lottery means that everyone won the lottery.


Well they say smoking causes cancer without a doubt....which is misleading, it is a 'factor' in some illnesses like cancer. Not the direct un-disputed cause, this is not to say it's safe to smoke or that its a lie to say someone got cancer from smoking too much for instance...but it's a factor typically there are other factors as well.


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13 Apr 2012, 11:56 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's a right for people to smoke as long as they do it away from those they bother. Some are simply in denial that their smoke blows into others' faces, and that's pretty annoying and it's also inexcusable. As long as they take responsibility for their smoke (keep it away from non-smokers), it's their right. That said, we all know it's harmful to them, but it's still a personal decision and a right.


non-smokers should likewise not go out of their way to come near me if I am outside somewhere standing out of the way just so I can avoid blowing smoke in anyone's face. Just so they can give me a nasty look when they get smoke in their face cause they went out of their way to come towards the smoke.

It especially pisses me off with kids....like I'll go off in some corner away from where everyone is walking/hanging out at a store for instance and it never fails someone with toddlers always has to walk by right next to me when I'm bloody out of the way. It's like hello, I'm over here smoking a cigarette why don't you take your kids and use the main walkway like everyone else instead of going out of your way to come by me when I'm smoking.


I'm sure this happens to homeless street-people all the time, too. For children, you're a curiosity. Something out of the ordinary, and that they wouldn't see every day. The same thing might happen if you were calmly taking a dump outside.



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13 Apr 2012, 12:00 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's a right for people to smoke as long as they do it away from those they bother. Some are simply in denial that their smoke blows into others' faces, and that's pretty annoying and it's also inexcusable. As long as they take responsibility for their smoke (keep it away from non-smokers), it's their right. That said, we all know it's harmful to them, but it's still a personal decision and a right.


non-smokers should likewise not go out of their way to come near me if I am outside somewhere standing out of the way just so I can avoid blowing smoke in anyone's face. Just so they can give me a nasty look when they get smoke in their face cause they went out of their way to come towards the smoke.

It especially pisses me off with kids....like I'll go off in some corner away from where everyone is walking/hanging out at a store for instance and it never fails someone with toddlers always has to walk by right next to me when I'm bloody out of the way. It's like hello, I'm over here smoking a cigarette why don't you take your kids and use the main walkway like everyone else instead of going out of your way to come by me when I'm smoking.


I'm sure this happens to homeless street-people all the time, too. For children, you're a curiosity. Something out of the ordinary, and that they wouldn't see every day. The same thing might happen if you were calmly taking a dump outside.


Well I am not talking about curiosity like some kid wanders over...in which case I'd do my best to keep the smoke out of their face or put the cigarette in an ash tray and take them back to their parent if they've strayed far from them. Its like I'm deliberitly out of the way and someone with very small children possibly in a stroller will go out of their way to walk past me and maybe even stand there for a minute (not the kids fault, the parent) and then I'm forced to try and keep the smoke out of their face when it would have never been an issue had they just used the main walkway.


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13 Apr 2012, 12:04 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's a right for people to smoke as long as they do it away from those they bother. Some are simply in denial that their smoke blows into others' faces, and that's pretty annoying and it's also inexcusable. As long as they take responsibility for their smoke (keep it away from non-smokers), it's their right. That said, we all know it's harmful to them, but it's still a personal decision and a right.


non-smokers should likewise not go out of their way to come near me if I am outside somewhere standing out of the way just so I can avoid blowing smoke in anyone's face. Just so they can give me a nasty look when they get smoke in their face cause they went out of their way to come towards the smoke.

It especially pisses me off with kids....like I'll go off in some corner away from where everyone is walking/hanging out at a store for instance and it never fails someone with toddlers always has to walk by right next to me when I'm bloody out of the way. It's like hello, I'm over here smoking a cigarette why don't you take your kids and use the main walkway like everyone else instead of going out of your way to come by me when I'm smoking.


I'm sure this happens to homeless street-people all the time, too. For children, you're a curiosity. Something out of the ordinary, and that they wouldn't see every day. The same thing might happen if you were calmly taking a dump outside.


Well I am not talking about curiosity like some kid wanders over...in which case I'd do my best to keep the smoke out of their face or put the cigarette in an ash tray and take them back to their parent if they've strayed far from them. Its like I'm deliberitly out of the way and someone with very small children possibly in a stroller will go out of their way to walk past me and maybe even stand there for a minute (not the kids fault, the parent) and then I'm forced to try and keep the smoke out of their face when it would have never been an issue had they just used the main walkway.


I would definitely give you a lot of space.