If a girl is raped and pregnant, should she keep the baby?

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12 Aug 2011, 6:24 am

i have explained that several times, i think the limit of 14-18 weeks should be enforced unless there is a real health risk to the mother, if the fetus is viable it should receive all the care it is entitled to, its life still does not trump that of the mother, they are equal.

as posted in 2 or 3 posts throughout this thread,

i have agreed with you all along that rights do come into it at a point, you seem to have blinded yourself.

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91
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12 Aug 2011, 6:25 am

^^^

Thats a start.

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12 Aug 2011, 11:31 am

Inuyasha wrote:

... your rights end when you are violating another individual's rights.

That is most certainly not the case. The law is engaged in a constant exercise of balancing competing rights.

My right to quiet enjoyment of my property is balanced against my neighbor's right to free expression.
My right to free expression is balanced against my neighbor's right to sue for defamation.
My right to equal benefit of the law is balanced against the Church's right to establish it's own doctrine.

The only right that I am aware of that is absolute is the right to freedom of thought, belief and opinion. There is not another right that is not, to greater or lesser extent, infringed even in a free and democratic society.

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12 Aug 2011, 11:46 am

91 wrote:

I find it difficult to reconcile these two sentences with one another.

I respect that, and do not imagine for a moment that it does not cause me no small degree of regret. But my position is the product of a great deal of consideration (as clearly yours is, too).

Quote:

We certainly can. I respect your opinion and your right to have it, don't think otherwise for a moment. Unfortunately only one of us can have our opinions enshrined in law and they are, in part, mutually exclusive.

That is, of course, the dilemma. I argue for my opinion largely because it makes the lesser imposition. That doesn't mean I'm right--it's just the value to which I have chosen to give primacy. I am also very afraid of a circumstance in which access to abortion is impeded and women resort to unsafe means to terminate their pregnancies. In US states where there are impediments to access, we have seen cases of women turning to unsafe means, and dying as a result.

Quote:

I agree that freedom of thought is a fundamental right, but it simply cannot work without the right to life. You cannot think if you are not entitled to breathe.

I don't disagree. But the point was rather to illustrate the principle that a discussion of abortion that is predicated on individuals' rights is going to be impeded by the fact that none of the rights in question is absolute.

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12 Aug 2011, 7:02 pm

LKL wrote:

It has nerve impulses, not brain activity, Inuyasha. Clams have a more developed nervous system than a 50 day old zef. An organism with less nerve organization than a clam, even if it has a full set of human chromosomes (saying that a sperm has 'incomplete DNA' is one more demonstration of how little you actually understand about the issue, as if we needed one), is not worth an adult woman skipping coffee for a week, much less being constantly sick and facing the prospect of 9 months of being an invalid. Especially if said zef is the result of rape.

Wasn't your source from a woman that wasn't even a scientist and is a pro-abortion activist that enjoys working at abortion clinics?

Seriously, I'm going to go with what scientists said before abortion became a hot button political issue, not what a bunch of people with ulterior motives say.

So we're going to say brain function is the standard, okay guess you aren't a human then because you aren't NT.

Oodain wrote:

to say a human 3 month old zef is not a person is provable and objective, personhood requires consciousness, something it cannot physically attain at that point.

Just because they don't look like an adult human or toddler, doesn't mean they aren't still a human being. Also you don't know if the child is conscious or not, and quite frankly I really don't care, there is brain function, it does not matter if they are sleeping because of the enormous amount of energy they are burning through, awake, etc. Their brain function is increasing at an astronomical rate, unlike a stroke victim whom has to struggle to regain functionality (and might not recover).

I'm not going to run around saying that oh their function is too little one day but enough a month later to classify in your mind as human. If there is any brain activity, they are a human being, I'm not going to play around with shifting goalposts.

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12 Aug 2011, 8:28 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

LKL wrote:

Wasn't your source from a woman that wasn't even a scientist and is a pro-abortion activist that enjoys working at abortion clinics?

There are PRO-abortion activists?

[Citation Needed]

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12 Aug 2011, 8:41 pm

" if the fetus is viable it should receive all the care it is entitled to,"

Now there is a generous statement indeed.

Passing lightly over "viable" as a moving target [I wonder how many people currently breathing would have been viable as recently as 1911?] we will ask WHO graciously decides, on WHAT basis, how much of what kind of care any individual is entitled to?

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12 Aug 2011, 9:09 pm

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

LKL wrote:

Wasn't your source from a woman that wasn't even a scientist and is a pro-abortion activist that enjoys working at abortion clinics?

There are PRO-abortion activists?

[Citation Needed]

Yeah there are actually pro-abortion activists usually they are tied with radical feminists.

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12 Aug 2011, 9:16 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

LKL wrote:

Wasn't your source from a woman that wasn't even a scientist and is a pro-abortion activist that enjoys working at abortion clinics?

There are PRO-abortion activists?

[Citation Needed]

Yeah there are actually pro-abortion activists usually they are tied with radical feminists.

So they favor getting pregnant and killing the fetus?

Got a source? Anything you can link to?

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12 Aug 2011, 10:47 pm

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

LKL wrote:

Wasn't your source from a woman that wasn't even a scientist and is a pro-abortion activist that enjoys working at abortion clinics?

There are PRO-abortion activists?

[Citation Needed]

Yeah there are actually pro-abortion activists usually they are tied with radical feminists.

So they favor getting pregnant and killing the fetus?

Got a source? Anything you can link to?

It's more of they consider the child to be nothing more than a parasite, as we've seen some people say here in this thread in their own words.

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13 Aug 2011, 1:44 am

91 wrote:

LKL wrote:

is not worth an adult woman skipping coffee for a week

This is the attitude prolifers take the largest issue with.

LKL wrote:

personhood requires consciousness

Firstly one would only choose to use person-hood if one wanted to disqualify the unborn. I take it as disingenuous, does your proposing of the personhood standard mean that you are in favor of banning the abortion of all those who meet that qualification? We have seen many standards proposed by the pro-choice movement that they really have no desire to stick to... rather they see their raising of these things to be an attempt to stick-it to pro-lifers. Getting one of you to stick by the standard you mention might actually be a start.

Don't ask us which abortions that we ought to be in favor of until you know which ones you would say no to.

I am well aware that forced-birthers take issue with the fact that I favor the woman over the zef, thank you. Pointing it out every time I say something you don't like makes no points for either you or Inuyasha.
As far as a hard-and-fast line, I say trust women to make their own decisions at whatever stage, and trust doctors to perform abortions only when their conscience allows. George Tiller, the infamous 'late term abortionist' who was assasinated by a Christian terrorist, refused to perform abortions on occasion. Err on the side of liberty and control over one's own body. I take a hardline pro-choice stance when I set myself up against forced birthers, but I do recognize that 3rd trimester abortions are a grey area that gets greyer towards full term - I just don't trust any of you to make a decision for me if I should ever find myself pregnant with, for example, an anencephalic zef (something generally only diagnosed late in the pregnancy), severe preeclampsia (which, again, occurs late in a pregnancy), or with the zef of a rapist. I. don't. trust. you. to make decisions about my body at any time, during any stage of pregnancy, whether I want a child or not.

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13 Aug 2011, 1:49 am

Inuyasha wrote:

LKL wrote:

Wasn't your source from a woman that wasn't even a scientist and is a pro-abortion activist that enjoys working at abortion clinics?

One of my sources was a pro-choice site. You didn't bother to read any of it, of course - nor any of the other sources I posted, including several peer-reviewed papers.

Quote:

So we're going to say brain function is the standard, okay guess you aren't a human then because you aren't NT.

Another demonstration of the black-and-white thinking of a right-winger, thank you.
Brain function occurs on a continuum, dear. There's a long way between a first-trimester zef and a turkey, and a long way between a turkey and me. That's three different levels of function instead of two, can you handle it? Could you handle it if I said that there are even more than three?

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13 Aug 2011, 10:52 am

Philologos wrote:

I think that the moving target of viability is one of the strengths of relying on it as a benchmark. As medical skill and knowledge develop, the availability of abortion will change with it.

As for who decides, there are three parties involved: the patient (or the patient's guardian) who makes the decisions, the physician who provides the advice and the purchaser who pays the bill. In some cases the patient is also the purchaser, but generally speaking that is the insurer. It's a pretty straightforward framework.

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13 Aug 2011, 4:53 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

You are saying we should allow infanticide,

I am saying that the reason abortion is legal is because it is NOT infanticide. It is a surgical procedure by which a woman can choose to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. Because since it is her body after-all, she should have all the rights to this decision.

When you explain the other side's position incorrectly, that's a strawman. Saying that the people on the other side want legalization of infanticide is a ridiculous claim.

You gleefully avoided the question. Would you be ok with the government saying that everyone healthy should donate blood three times a week for 9 months so to avoid anyone to die because of needing a transfusion?

Quote:

your rights end when you are violating another individual's rights.

Exactly.

A non-person is not an individual though, so there is nothing that would cause the woman's rights to end. In our crazy society, those things that are not human are not entitled to rights. We kill zillions of them every hour.

Quote:

Furthermore, your example of Sperm cells is highly inaccurate because the DNA isn't complete until it fertilizes the egg.

It is complete. It has potential to fertilize the egg, so by your logic, a sperm is a fertilized egg, and by that logic, a fertilized egg is a zef and a zef is a fetus and a fetus is a baby and a baby is a teenage girl and a teenage girl is the next Lady Gaga.

I do not believe that every sperm is the next Lady Gaga, so I will say that your logic is wrong.

Quote:

Furthermore, last I checked skin cells do not have brain activity.

Neither do zefs. NEXT!

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13 Aug 2011, 7:57 pm

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Wasn't your source from a woman that wasn't even a scientist and is a pro-abortion activist that enjoys working at abortion clinics?

There are PRO-abortion activists?

[Citation Needed]

He thinks pro-choice = pro-abortion.
He thinks pro-choice = pro-infanticide.

A question, Is it worth trying to teach pyshics to a dog?

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13 Aug 2011, 9:29 pm

blunnet wrote:

Is it worth trying to teach pyshics to a dog?

Is it worth the effort to try to teach spelling to a democrat?

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