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ArrantPariah
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06 Jun 2012, 7:33 pm

I don't quite see how this discussion became so weird, with accusations of +r0111ng being hurled about, without my participation. Maybe you could start a new thread?



visagrunt
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07 Jun 2012, 12:59 pm

Raptor wrote:
Believe it or not there really is such a thing as envy and it does drive some people to attack those that have what they don't.
Forget trying to make me feel guilty because you can't and I'll just post more.
:P


Believe it or not, there really is such a thing as conscience and it does cause people to consider those who don't have what they have.
Stop trying to be an apologist for the callous and the arrogant.

I earn more, and I expect to pay a greater proportion of my earnings into the activities that we all benefit from. This isn't guilt, this is a recognition that a healthy, well educated and well nourished society is safer, more productive and more prosperous than one in which a significant number of people lack access to these essentials.

I am personally better off because I don't have to protect myself from people who aren't--because I have paid into a system that seeks ensure that they aren't. And as governments strive to strip away at these systems--all in the name of protecting an extra $50 in my pay packet each week, I lose patience with the short term thinking that this represents.

I reject your individualistic notions as unworthy of a member of a free and mutually respectful society.


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07 Jun 2012, 5:13 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Believe it or not there really is such a thing as envy and it does drive some people to attack those that have what they don't.
Forget trying to make me feel guilty because you can't and I'll just post more.
:P


Believe it or not, there really is such a thing as conscience and it does cause people to consider those who don't have what they have.
Stop trying to be an apologist for the callous and the arrogant.

I earn more, and I expect to pay a greater proportion of my earnings into the activities that we all benefit from. This isn't guilt, this is a recognition that a healthy, well educated and well nourished society is safer, more productive and more prosperous than one in which a significant number of people lack access to these essentials.

I am personally better off because I don't have to protect myself from people who aren't--because I have paid into a system that seeks ensure that they aren't. And as governments strive to strip away at these systems--all in the name of protecting an extra $50 in my pay packet each week, I lose patience with the short term thinking that this represents.

I reject your individualistic notions as unworthy of a member of a free and mutually respectful society.


Amen, to you sir. 8)
As far as certain representatives protecting that extra Fifty dollars in one's wallet - it's a matter that those representatives believe the average voter doesn't have much more sense than to think beyond the contents of their wallets. And that's because those are the kind of people who they get to vote for them.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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07 Jun 2012, 5:18 pm

$50 a week is $2600/yr, or about the cost of one semester of college at a public university here in Texas. F*ck yea, that's worth protecting.



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07 Jun 2012, 5:24 pm

Most people will probably end up spending ~$50/week on things that are not particularly necessary. But open the question about taxes and helping the less fortunate through a social net, and suddenly fiscal responsibility and saving are apparently their paradigm. There are in fact, not that many civilized people in the world


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07 Jun 2012, 5:27 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Believe it or not, there really is such a thing as conscience and it does cause people to consider those who don't have what they have.
Stop trying to be an apologist for the callous and the arrogant.

I earn more, and I expect to pay a greater proportion of my earnings into the activities that we all benefit from. This isn't guilt, this is a recognition that a healthy, well educated and well nourished society is safer, more productive and more prosperous than one in which a significant number of people lack access to these essentials.

I am personally better off because I don't have to protect myself from people who aren't--because I have paid into a system that seeks ensure that they aren't. And as governments strive to strip away at these systems--all in the name of protecting an extra $50 in my pay packet each week, I lose patience with the short term thinking that this represents.

I reject your individualistic notions as unworthy of a member of a free and mutually respectful society.


QFT.

You deserve a gold medal.


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07 Jun 2012, 5:46 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
SpiritBlooms wrote:
I guess what astounds me about the argument over taxes is how people can be so sympathetic toward people who make millions, and who with even a 30% tax would still be rich beyond your and my dreams, while ignoring the plight of the poor. How can someone have more compassion for the rich than for the poor? I don't get it.

People sometimes go so far as to say the poor bring their problems on themselves, when in fact it's the unbalanced distribution of income that is the biggest cause of poverty. If a CEO is willing to live on 3 or 4 times the pay of the lowest paid workers, for what they consider their superior intelligence or selling ability, maybe that's getting close to equitable. But they don't, they're not content with that. They want millions more.

Work is work, effort is effort, and no one works 24 hours a day. If someone is willing to do the humble work that others don't want or that others think is beneath them, I think that deserves some consideration. In my perfect world no one would make some obscene, unreasonable amount of money they don't even have time to spend, or have to make up ways of spending, like helicopter ski trips, seven vacation homes, designer wardrobes and one face lift after another. Instead everyone who contributes would share in that, and the surplus would be put into infrastructure, into making the world better for everyone. We live in an abundant world, but you wouldn't know it to see how most people in the world live.

What does all this greed mean? It simply means that some people think they're better than everyone else, that they have a right to live off the labors of everyone else and live 1,000 times better while they're at it. That, my friends, is just sick. Yet we reward this behavior and protect them from paying their share of taxes, if they pay taxes at all.


Very well said indeed, there is absolutley no justifiable reason for the gigantic rift between the rich and poor. Why should a single person have more than enough money for 100 people to live on? They are never going to spend all that....and I thought for the economy to run it helps if consumers buy products rather then filling rooms with cash all in an attempt to keep it in the wealthy families. And then having the government pumping out more money which causes inflation.


theres plenty of justifiable "rift" between the rich and the poor. Because runing a billion dollar company takes a whole lot more effort than flipping burgers. And so does being the person that is blamed for everything that goes wrong with said company. But CEOs aside, most people that are "rich" are so because they gambled. They found the right career/job, started a company that was a hit, spent an extra 12 years in school after highschool, plenty of thinggs that they have fought for. The result of that fight? money. Simple as that. Saying otherwise screams of jealousness at their good fortune. which to be fair is human nature



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07 Jun 2012, 5:54 pm

JWC wrote:
$50 a week is $2600/yr, or about the cost of one semester of college at a public university here in Texas. F*ck yea, that's worth protecting.


But why are tuitions at a public university at that level?

Because people like me are so zealously guarding that $50, instead of putting that money into the system so that any student who meets the academic qualifications can get an education, and emerge from that education without a boatload of debt.

Employers benefit from a young, educated workforce that is debt free--because they can be hired for salaries that are reasonable, without taking into account the need to service student debt for ten years.

But that extra $50 will pay for a few lunches, so maybe that's more important that work force renewal.


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07 Jun 2012, 6:45 pm

MXH wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
SpiritBlooms wrote:
I guess what astounds me about the argument over taxes is how people can be so sympathetic toward people who make millions, and who with even a 30% tax would still be rich beyond your and my dreams, while ignoring the plight of the poor. How can someone have more compassion for the rich than for the poor? I don't get it.

People sometimes go so far as to say the poor bring their problems on themselves, when in fact it's the unbalanced distribution of income that is the biggest cause of poverty. If a CEO is willing to live on 3 or 4 times the pay of the lowest paid workers, for what they consider their superior intelligence or selling ability, maybe that's getting close to equitable. But they don't, they're not content with that. They want millions more.

Work is work, effort is effort, and no one works 24 hours a day. If someone is willing to do the humble work that others don't want or that others think is beneath them, I think that deserves some consideration. In my perfect world no one would make some obscene, unreasonable amount of money they don't even have time to spend, or have to make up ways of spending, like helicopter ski trips, seven vacation homes, designer wardrobes and one face lift after another. Instead everyone who contributes would share in that, and the surplus would be put into infrastructure, into making the world better for everyone. We live in an abundant world, but you wouldn't know it to see how most people in the world live.

What does all this greed mean? It simply means that some people think they're better than everyone else, that they have a right to live off the labors of everyone else and live 1,000 times better while they're at it. That, my friends, is just sick. Yet we reward this behavior and protect them from paying their share of taxes, if they pay taxes at all.


Very well said indeed, there is absolutley no justifiable reason for the gigantic rift between the rich and poor. Why should a single person have more than enough money for 100 people to live on? They are never going to spend all that....and I thought for the economy to run it helps if consumers buy products rather then filling rooms with cash all in an attempt to keep it in the wealthy families. And then having the government pumping out more money which causes inflation.


theres plenty of justifiable "rift" between the rich and the poor. Because runing a billion dollar company takes a whole lot more effort than flipping burgers. And so does being the person that is blamed for everything that goes wrong with said company. But CEOs aside, most people that are "rich" are so because they gambled. They found the right career/job, started a company that was a hit, spent an extra 12 years in school after highschool, plenty of thinggs that they have fought for. The result of that fight? money. Simple as that. Saying otherwise screams of jealousness at their good fortune. which to be fair is human nature


Way to assume all those who make low wages only have the skill level to flip burgers. Sorry but I feel like construction/painting work like my dad does takes more physical effort than being some rich CEO. There is no reason one person should have more than enough money for 100 people to live on while there are people in poverty. People need to have the means to survive, as simple as that...if the government wont adress the problem and provide help as I said before the citizens have no obligation to support the government...and if anything an obligation to try and overthrow it.


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visagrunt
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07 Jun 2012, 6:46 pm

MXH wrote:
theres plenty of justifiable "rift" between the rich and the poor. Because runing a billion dollar company takes a whole lot more effort than flipping burgers. And so does being the person that is blamed for everything that goes wrong with said company. But CEOs aside, most people that are "rich" are so because they gambled. They found the right career/job, started a company that was a hit, spent an extra 12 years in school after highschool, plenty of thinggs that they have fought for. The result of that fight? money. Simple as that. Saying otherwise screams of jealousness at their good fortune. which to be fair is human nature


You won't find me complaining about CEO salaries, or the great windfall that the lucky investor/inventor had.

If shareholders are willing to pay millions to the men (generally) and women (more rarely) who manage the capital that they have invested, so be it. If the guy who invented Angry Birds (tm) is livin' large now--more power to him.

I am not so sanguine, however, about the burger flipper. Flipping burgers is an economically productive activity--and one for which the person doing the flipping should be able to earn a living wage. I would be far less concerned about income disparity if the people at the bottom end of that scale could properly feed, clothe and house themselves based on the wages of an honest day's work.

But where I get truly incensed is the notion that the lucky few should not be expected to pay a higher proportion of their income for the advantages that they reap from a civil society.

When the burger flipper has paid for food, clothing and shelter, that has used up a huge proportion of available income. When the CEO has paid for (more expensive) food, clothing and shelter, there's a great left over. And that's where the real justification for progressive taxation is to be found.


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07 Jun 2012, 7:31 pm

visagrunt wrote:

When the burger flipper has paid for food, clothing and shelter, that has used up a huge proportion of available income. When the CEO has paid for (more expensive) food, clothing and shelter, there's a great left over. And that's where the real justification for progressive taxation is to be found.


Need justifies theft? No matter how rich the rich man is, if he has come by his riches honestly they are his whether he could "afford" to give up some of them or not.

Rob from the rich, give to the poor?

Robbing Hood, Robbing Hood
With his thieving men,
Robbing Hood, Robbing Hood
looting o'er the glen
Feared by the bad, loathed by the good,
Robbing Hood .... Robbing Hood.

ruveyn



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07 Jun 2012, 7:35 pm

ruveyn wrote:
visagrunt wrote:

When the burger flipper has paid for food, clothing and shelter, that has used up a huge proportion of available income. When the CEO has paid for (more expensive) food, clothing and shelter, there's a great left over. And that's where the real justification for progressive taxation is to be found.


Need justifies theft? No matter how rich the rich man is, if he has come by his riches honestly they are his whether he could "afford" to give up some of them or not.

Rob from the rich, give to the poor?

Robbing Hood, Robbing Hood
With his thieving men,
Robbing Hood, Robbing Hood
looting o'er the glen
Feared by the bad, loathed by the good,
Robbing Hood .... Robbing Hood.

ruveyn


I am sure they all go their money through 'honest means.' :lol: :lol: anyways if the wealthy are not willing to contribute then yeah unfortunatly it has to be forced.


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ruveyn
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07 Jun 2012, 7:37 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

I am sure they all go their money through 'honest means.' :lol: :lol: anyways if the wealthy are not willing to contribute then yeah unfortunatly it has to be forced.


You approve of armed robbery? Shame on you. Will you be silent if you are robbed? I would bet you would weep and complain.

ruveyn



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07 Jun 2012, 7:41 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

I am sure they all go their money through 'honest means.' :lol: :lol: anyways if the wealthy are not willing to contribute then yeah unfortunatly it has to be forced.


You approve of armed robbery? Shame on you. Will you be silent if you are robbed? I would bet you would weep and complain.

ruveyn


If it where the only way to survive then Id do it....not saying I would approve but yeah if i was desprate it would become more tempting. But since there is that whole social safety network :chin: anyone can be pushed to the point of doing immoral things, so why would a policy that pushes people closer to that point be effective?


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07 Jun 2012, 7:43 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

If it where the only way to survive then Id do it....not saying I would approve but yeah if i was desprate it would become more tempting. But since there is that whole social safety network :chin: anyone can be pushed to the point of doing immoral things, so why would a policy that pushes people closer to that point be effective?


In short, your needs make you an enemy of your neighbors. Nothing justifies theft. It is a sin, and if carried out in a general way it would lead to the destruction of society. Just on Kantian grounds, theft should be rejected. If your need is so great, then beg, blubber and whine. Someone might help you.

ruveyn



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07 Jun 2012, 7:49 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

If it where the only way to survive then Id do it....not saying I would approve but yeah if i was desprate it would become more tempting. But since there is that whole social safety network :chin: anyone can be pushed to the point of doing immoral things, so why would a policy that pushes people closer to that point be effective?


In short, your needs make you an enemy of your neighbors. Nothing justifies theft. It is a sin, and if carried out in a general way it would lead to the destruction of society. Just on Kantian grounds, theft should be rejected. If your need is so great, then beg, blubber and whine. Someone might help you.

ruveyn


My neighbors? I would be robbing the people screwing things up....anyways sin is all a matter of perspective. Survival would overrule 'is this a sin or not?' Society is probably already screwed anyways, but there are a number of thing's I'd do before resorting to stealing...I'd probably raid all the abandoned stores I can find for supplies first.

If sh*t does indeed hit the fan, begging, blubbering and whining probably wouldn't help anything.


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