Misogyny/MRA is a sign of weakness

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XFilesGeek
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26 May 2013, 8:43 am

puddingmouse wrote:

Greb wrote:

I'm sorry, but the world doesn't rotate around women that don't care to look feminine enough.

I never said it does. Feminine enough for who, though? Sexist people? Exactly.

I would love for someone to quantify "feminine enough."

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26 May 2013, 8:45 am

thomas81 wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

The women in this list would probably be harassed for being masculine: http://www.afterellen.com/people/2007/7 ... page=1%2C0

But they are actually very attractive not at all ugly. Gender stereotypes again.

This is why I find it difficult to agree with the premise suggested by the OP. By all accounts, I was once a sexually frustrated 'loser guy' but i still advocated feminism because I regarded feminists as being allies against the status quo.

Your point is why I always hated patriarchy. I am attracted to many women who don't necessarilly conform to gender stereotypes or cliches about what is considered popularly attractive. It tried to disuade me from openly declaring my attraction for women who do not fit within the blonde haired, size zero barbie doll stereotype.

It also worth remembering that effeminate, cross dressing or gender ambiguous men are also victims of contemporary gender power relations.

I have more luck getting men who fall outside gender norms to have relationships with me. Mainly because they sort of understand what it's like. I don't have as much luck with lesbians because I'm not butch enough and not playing by their rules, either. Even the whole 'sexy butch' thing I showed in that link is a kind of stereotype-enforcing blah I can't be bothered with.

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Last edited by puddingmouse on 26 May 2013, 8:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

puddingmouse
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26 May 2013, 8:46 am

XFilesGeek wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Greb wrote:

I'm sorry, but the world doesn't rotate around women that don't care to look feminine enough.

I never said it does. Feminine enough for who, though? Sexist people? Exactly.

I would love for someone to quantify "feminine enough."

They do that all the time in Cosmo magazine (and yes, that's other women doing it.)

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Kurgan
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26 May 2013, 8:47 am

XFilesGeek wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Greb wrote:

I'm sorry, but the world doesn't rotate around women that don't care to look feminine enough.

I never said it does. Feminine enough for who, though? Sexist people? Exactly.

I would love for someone to quantify "feminine enough."

Someone who's a five-six or better on the base ten scale.

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26 May 2013, 8:48 am

Kurgan wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Greb wrote:

I'm sorry, but the world doesn't rotate around women that don't care to look feminine enough.

I never said it does. Feminine enough for who, though? Sexist people? Exactly.

I would love for someone to quantify "feminine enough."

Someone who's a five-six or better on the base ten scale.

That obviously objectively exists.

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Greb
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26 May 2013, 8:48 am

puddingmouse wrote:

Greb wrote:

I'm sorry, but the world doesn't rotate around women that don't care to look feminine enough.

I never said it does. Feminine enough for who, though? Sexist people? Exactly.

I don't care. People get harassed in the world if they don't fit the social standards. Everybody. Every moment. In every aspect of their life, because every aspect of social standards, that goes far beyond gender roles and it's much more complex than gender roles.

Feminist one century ago wanted equality. Well, you have equality. But equality doesn't mean fairness. The world is unfair. For everybody. Welcome to it. And it's quite weary when feminists keep claiming about gender roles when they run into the real world.

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26 May 2013, 8:50 am

^ I'm going to keep talking about gender roles though because they exist. Sorry about that.

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XFilesGeek
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26 May 2013, 8:55 am

puddingmouse wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Greb wrote:

I'm sorry, but the world doesn't rotate around women that don't care to look feminine enough.

I never said it does. Feminine enough for who, though? Sexist people? Exactly.

I would love for someone to quantify "feminine enough."

Someone who's a five-six or better on the base ten scale.

That obviously objectively exists.

Yes.

It is obviously objectively true in the same way that: men have to take steroids to be considered "sexy" while women don't even have to exercise, and women have an easier time dating.

Made-up facts, sob stories, and baseless assertions are kind of the "thing" in this thread.

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26 May 2013, 8:56 am

puddingmouse wrote:

^ I'm going to keep talking about gender roles though because they exist. Sorry about that.

You can keep talking about what you want. But don't be amazed if most of men don't take your word.

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26 May 2013, 8:57 am

Greb wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

^ I'm going to keep talking about gender roles though because they exist. Sorry about that.

You can keep talking about what you want. But don't be amazed if most of men don't take your word.

No amazement here.

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XFilesGeek
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26 May 2013, 8:59 am

Greb wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

^ I'm going to keep talking about gender roles though because they exist. Sorry about that.

You can keep talking about what you want. But don't be amazed if most of men don't take your word.

Most men I know are perfectly aware of the existence of gender stereotypes.

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26 May 2013, 9:06 am

thomas81 wrote:

Greb wrote:

This is not about gender. If you look different from most of the people in your group, you get harassed. If you're a woman dressing as a man, you get harassed. If you're a WASP dressing as a gangsta bro, you get harassed. If you're 60 years old and you're dressing as a teenager, you get harassed. If you live in our decade and you dress as you lived in 70s, you get harassed. If you go out to a Pub a Friday night and you dress as you were in Hawaii, you get harassed. If you walk naked in the promenade, you get harassed. If you use a plantpot as a hat, you get harassed.

This is not about f***ing genders. I'm sorry, but the world doesn't rotate around women that don't care to look feminine enough.

I think you're completely missing the point. Yes both genders get made fun of for being ugly but in the context of a bunch of men sniggering at butch or un-feminine women it is sinister on more than one level as they are enforcing gender specific roles and objectifying women that they should be waif like barbie doll figures.

No ugly guy is ever going to be raped for dressing in a 'revealing way' only to be told it was his own fault for dressing in a provocative way even though society enforced him to dress that way in the first place.

And? No ugly guy is ever going to be raped for dressing in a 'revealing way' because no guy is likely to be raped. If there's a psychotic woman who wants to have sex, she doens't have to rape guys, she just goes to the disco and pick one. Women can get guys without problems, what it's better for women, and that's OK, congrats, but because of that we get the advantage of being rarely raped with violence, that is the good side of it for men.

So what?

XFilesGeek wrote:

Greb wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

^ I'm going to keep talking about gender roles though because they exist. Sorry about that.

You can keep talking about what you want. But don't be amazed if most of men don't take your word.

Most men I know are perfectly aware of the existence of gender stereotypes.

Most men will just nod when you're talking about it because this kind of debates can become quite bitter.

If I'm with friends and somebody asks me about some potilical/religious polemic issue, I just say 'yeap, yeap...' and let go.

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26 May 2013, 9:18 am

puddingmouse wrote:

Greb wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

^ I'm going to keep talking about gender roles though because they exist. Sorry about that.

You can keep talking about what you want. But don't be amazed if most of men don't take your word.

No amazement here.

Greb doesn't speak for "most of men", or anybody other than himself, for that matter; so don't be too concerned about his postured ignorance, ie "This is not about gender!" /facepalm

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Kurgan
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26 May 2013, 9:18 am

XFilesGeek wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Greb wrote:

I'm sorry, but the world doesn't rotate around women that don't care to look feminine enough.

I never said it does. Feminine enough for who, though? Sexist people? Exactly.

I would love for someone to quantify "feminine enough."

Someone who's a five-six or better on the base ten scale.

That obviously objectively exists.

Plenty of women who don't exercise are just as fit as Rihanna or Pink. No men who do not exercise are as fit as Jason Momoa (who did use steroids for his role in Game of Thrones) or Dolph Lundgren.

Google "Susanne Svanevik" if you want to know how a woman actually looks after just two years of a very tough workout routine similar to what men are expected to go through. While she does not at all look masculine, she's still significantly more muscular than any famous female singer or actress.

Last edited by Kurgan on 26 May 2013, 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

thomas81
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26 May 2013, 9:31 am

Greb wrote:

[quo

And? No ugly guy is ever going to be raped for dressing in a 'revealing way' because no guy is likely to be raped. If there's a psychotic woman who wants to have sex, she doens't have to rape guys, she just goes to the disco and pick one. Women can get guys without problems, what it's better for women, and that's OK, congrats, but because of that we get the advantage of being rarely raped with violence, that is the good side of it for men.

*sigh*

Sweet Jesus. Someone else deal with this guy. I'm done here.

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Kurgan
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26 May 2013, 9:34 am

puddingmouse wrote:

You know some queers don't go for that whole stereotyped male/female role thing. Hell, some straight relationships don't even work that way. Not everyone has this monochrome view of gender and sexuality.

I'm well aware of that. In many long-term gay relationships, there are gender roles, though.

Quote:

IMO, scrubbing her up would make her look like an average woman who's a bit fat. Nothing unusually masculine about that. Probably even some men would find her acceptably attractive. You seem to think women who aren't attractive to you are lacking in womanhood.

That only happens in movies. The woman I posted a picture of would look like Miss Piggy in fancy clothes if she got a makeover.

Quote:

Get laid once playboy and Hooters are gone, seriously? Again, some people aren't interested in having sex with the kind of men (and women, I guess) who go to Hooters, anyway. They're not trying to close strip clubs to get laid, they're trying to close them because they think (perhaps wrongly) that such things create a sexist culture that encourages violence and contempt for women.

How often do you see very pretty women protesting against strip clubs? Several strippers here in Norway are in fact feminists; one of the most famous prostitues is as well.

Quote:

Why don't you actually address that argument rather than just about their levels of sexual confidence?
It's not hard to do. There's enough evidence out there that porn in particular doesn't encourage sexual violence and even decreases it - though I do think rad fems are right on the strip club thing because they've shown me evidence and the other side hasn't yet. I don't campaign to have strip clubs shut down because I think that creates a backlash and because I haven't been totally convinced either way, yet. But again, I deal with arguments, not looks.

They haven't really got any valid arguments for protesting against the strip clubs.

Quote:

Also, MRAs are fundamentally right on things like child custody and the male mental illness epidemic - I even think feminism makes a mistake for not addressing these issues - but I disagree with them that feminism itself is necessarily to blame for their woes. I don't care how hot the guys are when they make these arguments, just whether they can make them effectively.

Not all MRAs belong to the same oranization. You have organizationsmthat genuinely care about men's rights, and you have organizations for bitter men. The latter largely consists of ugly men—just like the most radical feminists tend to be ugly.

Quote:

She's not much younger than me, but she looks 18. Not my kind of thing - possibly because I don't need women to look like they're at their peak of fertility.

Fertility peaks at 24.9 years.

Quote:

Who care if the ones you deem pretty are into banning porn altogether? There are ones you'd probably deem ugly and masculine who are all sex positive and are in porn themselves.

But they still look better than Ane Kristine Aadland or Andrea Dworkin.

Quote:

Also, there are probably straight conventionally feminine women who hate porn and would like it banned altogether

I've never seen anyone rally against it.

Quote:

Those anti-porn feminists you deem ugly have less to lose because they're not at all interested in men who like porn, anyway.

Or they genuinely (and wrongly so) thinks that beauty stanards are all media and no instinct—and that this is the reason why people find them unattractive. Never mind the fact that the beauty standards by a "coincidence" have more estrogen, less testosterone and are more fertile than them.

Quote:

Is your mind blown by my existence, yet? :lol:

Not really. Many girls like porn—they just won't admit it.

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