Which political views are more aspie-friendly?

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Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,085
Location: New York City (Queens)

10 Aug 2019, 4:03 pm

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Where's your evidence that feminists in general favor a**holes over nice guys, as distinct from some feminists just being suspicious that "nice guys" are not as nice as they seem? Who is making that claim, and where?


If I were to talk about women in general as opposed to just feminists, then the evidence is that its usually shy guys that stay single, while the extroverted a**holes are usually paired up.

Above you seem to be conflating two different dimensions: nice vs. a**holes, and shy vs. extroverted. It's possible to be a nice extrovert, and it's also possible to be a shy a**hole.

Be that as it may, the rules of the heterosexual dating game still have not caught up with the progress of feminism, so men are still expected to be the ones to do all or most of the asking. That being the case, it's really tough for a shy man (whether he's nice or not) to get dates, whereas it's much easier for an extroverted man (whether he's nice or an a**hole) to get dates and to form a relationship.

QFT wrote:
As far as how it relates to feminism in particular, the thing is that when nice guys complain about it online and women rebuke them, they oftentimes cite feminist-sounding arguments. And the other evidence is that males online who defend them tend to blame feminism, as well.

I'd have to see one of these specific arguments to be able to comment on it.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
"Social justice warrior" means different things depending on exactly who is using the term, but usually it refers to someone who expresses left-wing views in a very obnoxious way and tries to "no-platform" other views. The latter aspect makes them not quite "liberal," and I would expect that most of the people who get called "social justice warriors" identify as "progressive" or "leftist" but not "liberal."


So are you saying that liberalism is moderate-left while social justice warrior is far left -- and aspies would get along better with moderate-leftists?

Or at least they would get along better in locales dominated by moderate-leftists.

QFT wrote:
But, if thats your terminology, why were you saying (in one of the sub-quotes of the above-cited quote) that feminists are social justice warriors? I always thought of feminism as moderate left?

I didn't say that all feminists are SJWs, just that feminism attracts SJWs. So some feminists are SJWs but not all are.

QFT wrote:
In fact that is one of the motivations for my question. On the surface feminism looks reasonable and I support most of its points (except for abortion of course) -- but then, "for some weird reason", they oppose the nice guys -- and I don't see why.

I would have to see an example of what you mean in order to comment on this. Speaking for myself, I have no problem with nice guys.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Not just wanting to be Christian, but wanting the U.S.A. to be officially a "Christian nation," wanting Christian doctrine to be taught in public schools, wanting to keep out non-Christian (e.g. Muslim) immigrants, etc.

Many of these same Christian nationalists also want to keep out Hispanic immigrants, even though the latter are mostly Christian. White evangelicals are least likely to say U.S. should accept refugees, according to a Pew Research Poll. The common theme here is a desire to preserve the homogeneity of white Christian English-speaking American culture.


Well, if I look at places like American Renaissance, they don't talk about the disruption of homogeneity but, instead, they talk about race and intelligence. So, from this perspective, having French immigrants would be a positive while having Mexican immigrants would be a negative -- which is totally different perspective than opposing immigration as a whole. But are you saying that places like American Renaissance are exceptions -- whereas the majority of Republicans don't care about intelligence and just want homogeneity?

The only sites I've seen that explicitly make a general cultural homogeneity argument are some immigration-restrictionist sites, some white nationalist sites, and some "traditionalist conservative" sites. I seem to recall that VDare, for example, had a lot articles along these lines when I looked at it years ago.

One of the main arguments for general cultural homogeneity is summed up in Rudyard Kipling's poem "The Stranger," which you can find various places online. The idea is that, in a racially and culturally homogeneous society, everyone will have the same body language and the same unspoken social rules, and will thus be better able to decide whom to trust. Note how this argument goes directly against the interests of autistic people, who tend to have different body language from everyone else and have tend to have difficulty with the unspoken social rules of even the culture they were brought up in.

Anyhow, although most Republicans would not explicitly make a cultural homogeneity argument, they tend to live (and/or prefer to live) in culturally homogeneous places
(white, Christian-dominated, few if any first-generation immigrants). And there are plenty of Republicans who, while not making a general cultural homogeneity argument, do advocate specific dimensions of cultural homogeneity, such as Christian nationalism and restricting immigration.

QFT wrote:
On a side note, the Mexican immigrants are Catholic while American Republicans are Protestant.

Perhaps most Mexican immigrants are Catholic, but, over the past 50 years or so, there has been a dramatic growth of evangelical Christianity, primarily Pentecostal/charismatic, throughout Latin America.

QFT wrote:
I guess my gut tells me that in case of people from Mexico the main issue is their crime rate as opposed to religion, but there are always more than one variable in an equation.

That probably is a major issue in their minds, but it's a largely unfounded or at least greatly exaggerated fear. See Illegal Immigrants and Crime – Assessing the Evidence on the website of the Cato Institute (an organization that is conservative on many issues but pro-immigration). See also Research Tells Us That Immigration Does Not Lead to Higher Crime Rates, Pacific Standard, Aug 22, 2018.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
No, in a moderately conservative neighborhood, extreme right wingers of the same ethnicity, religion, and economic class as everyone else in the neighborhood wouldn't stick out in any culturally obvious way


So are you saying people wouldn't have long enough attention span to notice the difference in political views? Or are you saying that even if they did notice, they wouldn't care? If your answer is the second one, then how come they wouldn't care about political views if that is part of what constitutes cultural homogeneity?

I'm under the impression (though I'm not sure) that most extreme right wingers typically don't reveal the full extent of their political views to their immediate neighbors. Instead they just fan the flames of whatever racist or otherwise other anti-diversity views their neighbors might happen to express. (And lots of white people do occasionally express racially prejudiced views to each other, despite considering themselves not to be racist.)

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
The establishment was apparently disliked, in part, because a lot of Christian white folks perceived it as being too open to cultural heterogeneity, e.g. too friendly to blacks, immigrants, and Muslims. (The perception regarding immigration was actually inaccurate; immigration from Mexico actually went way down under the Obama administration.)


Its true that democrats disturb homogeneity by letting immigrants in. But, at the same time, Trump disturbs homogeneity in a different way: he proposes policies that nobody proposed before.

Cultural homogeneity does not imply that there can never be a change in policies.

In any case Trump's "new" ideas are far from totally new. They've been around for decades in the "paleoconservative" wing of the American conservative movement. In 2000, Pat Buchanan ran (unsuccessfully) for President on a similar platform. The conservative news websites Breitbart News and Zero Hedge have long championed a paleoconservative stance. Fox News has usually tended to lean more neoconservative, but individual Fox commentators (e.g. Ann Coulter) have long taken paleoconservative stances on particular issues.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
I'm not sure whether or how much this would apply to a white person in India, given that you would stick out as a white person regardless of where you go in India. Also, when I speak of a highly multicultural neighborhood, I mean one with people from more than just two cultures and preferably more than just two "races" (in terms of physical appearance). For example, in my neighborhood we have whites, blacks, Hispanics, and South Asians.


Yeah, that again seem to show that what I was thinking of was different from what you are thinking of. I was thinking along the lines of "accepting less intelligent/ more criminal races" -- which would mean that they would get more points for accepting someone black or Mexican than they would for accepting a south asian.

Again the immigrant crime stereotype is wrong. See the articles I linked above. And, like most neighborhoods here in NYC these days, my neighborhood is not high-crime.

QFT wrote:
But I guess you are talking more about learning about other cultures and that is when the longer the list the better.

Not just learning about other cultures, but creating a social atmosphere tolerant of variations in things like speech and body language.

QFT wrote:
But if thats the case, then why wouldn't the presence of Whites from other cultures help -- such as first generation European immigrants?

It does help. We do have first-generation European immigrants here too. They are part of the mix.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
First, it's not generally true that secular kids have no reason to improve.


I didn't mean they don't. I just put everything in simplistic terms in order to emphasize the point I was making. I guess what I meant to say was that Christian kids have "one more" reason to improve "besides" all those common-denominator reasons all kids have.

Thanks for the clarification.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
As for the use of Christianity as a tool to manipulate others, this is more likely to happen in places where Christianity is very popular than in places where Christianity is just one of several religions in the neighborhood. It has always seemed to me that Christians here in New York City are more likely to be sincere than Christians living in places where everyone is socially pressured to be Christian.


I guess this makes more sense. Is it sort of the same as back in the Soviet Union if you don't like someone you can just say they are "bad communist", but in america where communists are in a small minority this kind of trick won't work?

Yes, that's a good analogy.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Actually I think a lot of red-state politicians and business leaders probably do think that way, and a lot of other people think something more like, "hey I better be a Christian since I need my family and neighbors to accept me."


Well, thats different from using Christianity as a way of manipulating others. When people are citing biblical verses to tell me why I shouldn't worry about the future partner, they aren't trying to get "themselves" fit in as Christians; they are trying to get "me" off their back.

Or are you saying that, after people used Christianity to "fit in", they then "evolved" to view it as a "currency" so to speak -- and then use it for other purposes too?

Yes, they probably do that too. They probably aren't the only Christians who use it as a "currency" when talking to other Christians, but I would expect the more sincere Christians to be more careful about using Christianity that way.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Christians who believe autism is "demonic" are likely to belong to the kind of church that sees demons everywhere.


Yeah, she talked a lot about the coming of antichrist and the mark of the beast. She also talked about subliminal messages that you would see in the movies and various other places. She also believed in various conspiracy theories, such as that 911 was inside job, that planes were producing chemtrails on purpose, and so forth.

That's not a surprise.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Here in my neighborhood, there are a few small storefront churches that hold weekly "deliverance ministry" services (in addition to their weekly regular worship services and Bible study). If a church believes that enough of its members' problems are caused by demons to justify a routine weekly exorcism, then it wouldn't surprise me if they think autism is caused by demons too, unless the pastor happens to be educated about autism.


But if they think large portion of their congregation are demon possessed, then this would no longer be grounds for ostracism, since they aren't ostracizing half of their congregation. Or are you saying that they do?

It might be grounds for ostracizing someone who refuses to attend their "deliverance ministry" service.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
I should point out that objecting to a specific kind of behavior (e.g. pushiness) isn't the same thing as having a general problem with your ASD.


Actually in her case it seems she did both. Like back at the time we were dating she would often say "I can't deal with your autism" (and yes she kept using the word autism even though I kept pointing out that in my case its Asperger but she kept ignoring it)

Aspergers always was classified as an "autism spectrum disorder," and, since the DSM 5 came out in 2013, "Aspergers" was eliminated as a distinct diagnosis. So if this conversation happened after 2013, she was technically correct by calling it "autism."

QFT wrote:
so I was asking her "what is it about my 'autism' that you can't deal with? You just can't get passed that word? Is that it?" and she would be like "see thats what I am talking about" -- thus insinuating that its my pushiness she disliked. But you see, the reason I was pushy is "because" of her prejudice against my "autism". So its circular. She doesn't like my "autism" because it makes me pushy and I am pushy because she doesn't like my "autism". Now, when she has a little more patience, then she actually tells me that pushiness is what it is; but when she is less patient she would just be saying she doesn't like my "autism" and not tell me why.

Yep, that kind of non-specificity can be very annoying.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Because many of us have difficulty picking up on subtle hints, we need people to be assertive with us about whatever issues they may have with our behavior.


Yes I totally agree with you. In fact thats my issue: that people won't tell me something bothers them until they made up their mind to distance away from me. And I am saying "hey, I didn't know it was an issue up until just now so why can't you give me another chance" -- but they won't. Well, I can make a pretty good guess that maybe the issue was bothering them for a long time they just didn't let me know -- and thats why from their perspective I had plenty of chances. But to me, if I am not "told" that something is wrong, its not really a "chance".

Agreed.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
The point is simply that people who live in a culturally homogeneous neighborhood are likely to have much narrower expectations of proper social behavior than people who live in a culturally heterogeneous neighborhood, and hence more likely to reject or bully people for any deviation from the norm.


So are you saying that the politics of Republican party is more narrow than the politics of Democrat party? I mean, to me this doesn't look like the case: both parties have a bunch of platforms that they won't let go of no matter what.

No, my point is that Republicans tend to live in, and favor, culturally homogeneous white Christian neighborhoods, whereas Democrats are more likely than Republicans to live in, and favor, culturally heterogeneous neighborhoods, and the latter are better for autistic people.


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Acteon25
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 9 Aug 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 44
Location: UK

12 Aug 2019, 9:35 am

QFT wrote:
From people on this board, as well as other places on the internet, I been hearing two things:

1. Liberals are more aspie-friendly than conservatives
2. Feminists are more hostile towards nice guys than others

Apart from the fact that 1 and 2 contradict each other (feminists tend to be liberal), I disagree with each of those two items on its own right, as well. Let me tell you why I disagree with those items:

1. I had a conservative girlfriend who really didn't mind my Asperger at all, but when I was invited to a party (which happened a year and a half into relationship) it was a problem since she thought partying are immoral. Now, she was raised in the devote southern baptist family and she was sheltered and isolated (she was still living with her parents even though she was in her 30s) thats why to her my own isolated lifestyle (caused by Asperger) looked normal while being invited to a party was not. Now I realize that an anecdotal example would not prove a big point, but what I am trying to say is that -- before you talk about what attitude would liberals or conservative have towards something -- you have to ask yourself whether that "something" alligns with the principles they promote. If it alligns with those principles they would be friendly towards it, if it contradicts them, they would be hostile towards this. In this particular case, aspie lifestyle alligned with her principles while NT lifestyle (partying) didn't, hence she was aspie friendly. So if you are going to tell me that most conservatives are hostile towards Asperger and that girl was an exception, the question is: in what way does Asperger violate conservative principles? Conservatives tend to be Christian. So do people with Asperger sin more than NT-s do? Well, I guess its true that a lot of people with Asperger are atheist. But not me: I am a Christian. So why am I, as a Christian aspie, given an advice to live in liberal states? If Christian conservatives are disliking CHRISTIAN aspies, I am back with a question: how exactly having Asperger violate Christian principles? Now, the context in which I was told that liberals are better for aspies was when I said that when I lived in Berkeley people were a lot friendlier towards me than elsewhere -- which is also true (and no, that conservative woman was not in Berkeley -- she was in Nebraska). So do you have any explanation why people at Berkeley (which, as we all know, are liberal) are so much friendlier towards me as an aspie? Well, I guess part of the answer might be that I am not going around with a sign "I am a Christian", so do people just assume that if I am an aspie I am an atheist? Or, if not, what is the logic behind it then?

2. As far as feminists and nice guys go, I have a logical reason to think that feminists should be more accepting of nice guys (in sharp contrast to being told that they are more hostile). You see, the only "problem" with nice guys is that, in society's eyes, they don't fulfill their "manly" role as men. But I thought feminists are against gender roles. So if you abolish gender roles altogether, then wouldn't nice "people" be better than hostile "people" which implies -- in gender neutral context -- that nice guys would be better, too?

So, to sum it up, my question is the following: my logic tells me that feminist+conservatives should be better for aspies, yet I am being told that patriarchy+liberalism is better for aspies. I realize that both of those statements are rather contradictory (since feminism and liberalism tends to go together) but since humans are complicated I guess those "weird" combinations that those statements are focused on might be "possible". But the "weird combination" my logic tells me should be good (feminism+conservatism) is diametrically opposed to the "weird combination" that I keep hearing should be good (liberalism+ opposition to feminism). Do you have any explanation as to where I made mistakes in my logic and why the reality is different?


From my personal experience, i’d say nice conservatives are the most accepting of people with Aspergers. Liberals pretend to care. They’ll say anything to make themselves look good and to get into power.

Also, most modern-day feminists are terribly spiteful, selfish and aggressive. They don’t care about equality of gender (which we already have), they’re misandrists who want domination.



rapplepop
Butterfly
Butterfly

Joined: 2 Sep 2019
Age: 36
Posts: 13
Location: USA

02 Sep 2019, 1:39 am

I find it really depends on the person. Some liberals don't like some autistic people because we speak what's on our minds and that can be un-PC and come off as insensitive. On the other hand some conservatives think we are weirdos.

I think people with less conservative personalities tend to like autistic people more, but that doesn't necessarily predict a person's politics. A lot of people with conservative and conventional personalities are politically liberal and a lot of people with unconventional personalities are politically conservative.