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marshall
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07 Jun 2012, 8:40 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

I am sure they all go their money through 'honest means.' :lol: :lol: anyways if the wealthy are not willing to contribute then yeah unfortunatly it has to be forced.


You approve of armed robbery? Shame on you. Will you be silent if you are robbed? I would bet you would weep and complain.

ruveyn


If I had more money than I could possibly use I would not weep and complain if some starving homeless person stole a 100 dollar bill out of my pocket. I'd let them have it. In fact I'd rather have the poor take $100 directly out of my paycheck than have them damage my property and take things that are personally meaningful to me in hopes of selling them off for 100 bucks. The former would be a lot less hassle for both of us. A social safety net based on taxation is simply more economical from an efficiency standpoint if the desperate poor are going to do what they need to do to get their needs met anyways.

Anyways, most human beings do not operate like robots obeying simple rules "no coercion or fraud, but anything else goes". Most human beings have a thing called emotions and react rather badly when treated like worthless garbage useful for nothing more than creating wealth for others higher on the social hierarchy. I'd also point out that fraud is not black and white but a slippery slope. A lot of things we consider permissible in capitalism are arguably fraudulent from an analytical point of view. Imbalance of information and subtle deception is the basis for a lot of legal money making schemes.



Last edited by marshall on 07 Jun 2012, 8:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.

aussiebloke
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07 Jun 2012, 8:44 pm

b9 wrote:
i do not really have many gripes about australia, but a few things are not quite satisfactory i guess.

i do not like the fact that sport is so revered, and i do not like that the fact that if i am not interested in sports, then that fact results many times in a frosty social experience.

i could not care less who is playing where or when.

the average australian (in my opinion) seems to be more accepting of mediocrity and less so of exception.

there is a "tall poppy" syndrome where average people look suspiciously at people who are in commanding positions. anyone who rises above the average is fair game for the admonition of people who are living a tough life.

many TV ads these days are filled with "assurances from satisfied customers", and they pick the most broadly average people to play the roles of "satisfied customers". people who sound not that smart at all.

it is a ploy to lure more average "gidday mate" australians to part with their cash.

i was bewildered that rudd won the election in 2007.
i disliked him profusely, and i felt that i was aware clearly of his artificiality, and i thought there was no way he could win. but he did, and at that time, i suffered a decline in my admiration of australians because i could not believe they could be romanced by his grimmacing face sprouting words that had no basis.

then gillard (the worm) ate her way in to the core of the misplaced apple (our government who lost direction under rudd) and then there was the celebrations that a woman was finally prime minister.

my eyebrows were not symmetrical for quite a large portion of my observation of the parliament,
they still are not.

i like everything else about living in australia though.


yes but you like Peter Costello .


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marshall
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07 Jun 2012, 8:55 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

If it where the only way to survive then Id do it....not saying I would approve but yeah if i was desprate it would become more tempting. But since there is that whole social safety network :chin: anyone can be pushed to the point of doing immoral things, so why would a policy that pushes people closer to that point be effective?


In short, your needs make you an enemy of your neighbors. Nothing justifies theft. It is a sin, and if carried out in a general way it would lead to the destruction of society. Just on Kantian grounds, theft should be rejected. If your need is so great, then beg, blubber and whine. Someone might help you.

ruveyn


My neighbors? I would be robbing the people screwing things up....anyways sin is all a matter of perspective. Survival would overrule 'is this a sin or not?' Society is probably already screwed anyways, but there are a number of thing's I'd do before resorting to stealing...I'd probably raid all the abandoned stores I can find for supplies first.

If sh*t does indeed hit the fan, begging, blubbering and whining probably wouldn't help anything.


I'm sure ruveyn would resort to stealing if he had absolutely nothing and would otherwise starve to death. All humans would. Especially if they didn't have an easy means to kill themselves more quickly than dying of starvation.



Sweetleaf
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07 Jun 2012, 8:59 pm

marshall wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

If it where the only way to survive then Id do it....not saying I would approve but yeah if i was desprate it would become more tempting. But since there is that whole social safety network :chin: anyone can be pushed to the point of doing immoral things, so why would a policy that pushes people closer to that point be effective?


In short, your needs make you an enemy of your neighbors. Nothing justifies theft. It is a sin, and if carried out in a general way it would lead to the destruction of society. Just on Kantian grounds, theft should be rejected. If your need is so great, then beg, blubber and whine. Someone might help you.

ruveyn


My neighbors? I would be robbing the people screwing things up....anyways sin is all a matter of perspective. Survival would overrule 'is this a sin or not?' Society is probably already screwed anyways, but there are a number of thing's I'd do before resorting to stealing...I'd probably raid all the abandoned stores I can find for supplies first.

If sh*t does indeed hit the fan, begging, blubbering and whining probably wouldn't help anything.


I'm sure ruveyn would resort to stealing if he had absolutely nothing and would otherwise starve to death. All humans would. Especially if they didn't have an easy means to kill themselves more quickly than dying of starvation.


Yeah most likely...I mean he should know more than anyone else that survival of the fittest takes place when society collapses. Based on some of the posts at least.


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marshall
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07 Jun 2012, 9:00 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

If it where the only way to survive then Id do it....not saying I would approve but yeah if i was desprate it would become more tempting. But since there is that whole social safety network :chin: anyone can be pushed to the point of doing immoral things, so why would a policy that pushes people closer to that point be effective?


In short, your needs make you an enemy of your neighbors. Nothing justifies theft. It is a sin, and if carried out in a general way it would lead to the destruction of society. Just on Kantian grounds, theft should be rejected. If your need is so great, then beg, blubber and whine. Someone might help you.

ruveyn


Kant was a douchebag and selfishness and hoarding lead to the destruction of society as those without the means to survive begin to see those holding on to more than enough as their enemy.



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07 Jun 2012, 9:13 pm

The two party system in America angers me the most.



ruveyn
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07 Jun 2012, 11:42 pm

marshall wrote:

Kant was a douchebag and selfishness and hoarding lead to the destruction of society as those without the means to survive begin to see those holding on to more than enough as their enemy.


You set yourself as a judge as to whether another person has enough or more than enough? Who are you?

You can judge you own needs. You are in no position to judge anyone else's needs.

Unless of course, you have died, gone to heaven and become God.

ruveyn



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08 Jun 2012, 4:05 am

:arrow: our lack of universal health care :x
:arrow: the generally insufferable snobbishness/self-righteousness of the american middle class
:arrow: our disgustingly base politics
:arrow: our base popular culture
:arrow: our rampant individualism
:arrow: our atavistic tendency to blame everything on the ones at the bottom of the totem pole :x
:arrow: our unseemly worship of the wealthy and of money, power, and fame
:arrow: our wastefulness, as a culture, as a nation :x

there are many more things but a lack of space and time to describe them here. gawd, i wish canada [or australia/NZ] weren't so picky about who they admit to live in their fine nation[s]. :roll:



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08 Jun 2012, 4:12 am

auntblabby wrote:
:arrow: our lack of universal health care :x
:arrow: the generally insufferable snobbishness/self-righteousness of the american middle class
:arrow: our disgustingly base politics
:arrow: our base popular culture
:arrow: our rampant individualism
:arrow: our atavistic tendency to blame everything on the ones at the bottom of the totem pole :x
:arrow: our unseemly worship of the wealthy and of money, power, and fame
:arrow: our wastefulness, as a culture, as a nation :x

there are many more things but a lack of space and time to describe them here. gawd, i wish canada [or australia/NZ] weren't so picky about who they admit to live in their fine nation[s]. :roll:


Amen, brother blabby. 8)

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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08 Jun 2012, 7:32 am

How costly everything is. That's the major issue here :(



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08 Jun 2012, 8:55 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Way to assume all those who make low wages only have the skill level to flip burgers. Sorry but I feel like construction/painting work like my dad does takes more physical effort than being some rich CEO. There is no reason one person should have more than enough money for 100 people to live on while there are people in poverty. People need to have the means to survive, as simple as that...if the government wont adress the problem and provide help as I said before the citizens have no obligation to support the government...and if anything an obligation to try and overthrow it.


What ever happened to the american dream? I doubt youve heard of that concept but ill explain it. See there was this idea back in the times of cavemen that people would go out and do the best they could and work their way from rags to riches. Now what we do is condemn those in riches until they give you what you feel you deserve. If you were a guy saying you deserve a hot model youd be laughed out of wp and most places irl. And its the EXACT same concept. You have to work for those things. Some people are luckier than others and achieve things more easily. But bitching about it and protesting is not going to fix anything.



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08 Jun 2012, 9:21 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
:arrow: our lack of universal health care :x
:arrow: the generally insufferable snobbishness/self-righteousness of the american middle class
:arrow: our disgustingly base politics
:arrow: our base popular culture
:arrow: our rampant individualism
:arrow: our atavistic tendency to blame everything on the ones at the bottom of the totem pole :x
:arrow: our unseemly worship of the wealthy and of money, power, and fame
:arrow: our wastefulness, as a culture, as a nation :x

there are many more things but a lack of space and time to describe them here. gawd, i wish canada [or australia/NZ] weren't so picky about who they admit to live in their fine nation[s]. :roll:


Amen, brother blabby. 8)

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Make that a double Amen :hail:



Lord_Gareth
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08 Jun 2012, 10:45 am

MXH wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Way to assume all those who make low wages only have the skill level to flip burgers. Sorry but I feel like construction/painting work like my dad does takes more physical effort than being some rich CEO. There is no reason one person should have more than enough money for 100 people to live on while there are people in poverty. People need to have the means to survive, as simple as that...if the government wont adress the problem and provide help as I said before the citizens have no obligation to support the government...and if anything an obligation to try and overthrow it.


What ever happened to the american dream? I doubt youve heard of that concept but ill explain it. See there was this idea back in the times of cavemen that people would go out and do the best they could and work their way from rags to riches. Now what we do is condemn those in riches until they give you what you feel you deserve. If you were a guy saying you deserve a hot model youd be laughed out of wp and most places irl. And its the EXACT same concept. You have to work for those things. Some people are luckier than others and achieve things more easily. But bitching about it and protesting is not going to fix anything.


Nice fairy tale. It's a shame that it wasn't true even during the time period that most people think it was. Wealth has always stayed with the wealthy; stories like Rockafeller, Bill Gates and Walt Disney were rare and exceptional even during their times, and their rise to wealth and status also incidentally crushed the 'American Dream' of many others along the way. These days the potential for economic mobility is even less, and while it's possible to claw one's way from the bottom to some semblance of middle class (perhaps by becoming a doctor?), the sad truth is that even those careers one can purchase through education and grit are hiring less and less because the demand is filling rapidly but the supply is still up. Most people in the bottom two-fifths of the economy will never have even that chance. The homeless become trapped in a cycle of poverty because they lack things like identifications, phone numbers, and steady addresses - all things needed to become employed - and families that acquire debt often unwillingly trap their children in a cycle of debt as well.

If you want to preach the American Dream, you have to preach a level playing field. Anything else is offering the illusion of mertiocracy without the reality.


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08 Jun 2012, 12:24 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Need justifies theft? No matter how rich the rich man is, if he has come by his riches honestly they are his whether he could "afford" to give up some of them or not.

Rob from the rich, give to the poor?

Robbing Hood, Robbing Hood
With his thieving men,
Robbing Hood, Robbing Hood
looting o'er the glen
Feared by the bad, loathed by the good,
Robbing Hood .... Robbing Hood.

ruveyn


You cannot be so utterly stupid as to believe that rhetoric equals truth. I should not have to say to you, of all people, that repeating a lie does not make it true.

Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civil society. They are no more theft than the membership dues in a club. And in return for that price, I live in a peaceful, free and democratic society. If you do not like the club facilities and the dues, then tear up your membership card and leave the premises.

Now, that is not to say that you should not complain about how your taxes are being spent, and whether or not you receive value for money. But only a liar and hypocrite calls them, "theft."


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08 Jun 2012, 12:30 pm

In North Carolina I hate our Mayor what a deuce can't stand em.



Sweetleaf
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08 Jun 2012, 12:57 pm

MXH wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Way to assume all those who make low wages only have the skill level to flip burgers. Sorry but I feel like construction/painting work like my dad does takes more physical effort than being some rich CEO. There is no reason one person should have more than enough money for 100 people to live on while there are people in poverty. People need to have the means to survive, as simple as that...if the government wont adress the problem and provide help as I said before the citizens have no obligation to support the government...and if anything an obligation to try and overthrow it.


What ever happened to the american dream? I doubt youve heard of that concept but ill explain it. See there was this idea back in the times of cavemen that people would go out and do the best they could and work their way from rags to riches. Now what we do is condemn those in riches until they give you what you feel you deserve. If you were a guy saying you deserve a hot model youd be laughed out of wp and most places irl. And its the EXACT same concept. You have to work for those things. Some people are luckier than others and achieve things more easily. But bitching about it and protesting is not going to fix anything.


What I am condemning is the idea that people should be left to die, if they do not have enough money to make ends meet so I support having a social safety network. Besides the 'you're just jealous' argument has already been attempted and failed so as far as I'm concerned its BS. Go ahead try and twist it around....also just going along with what I know to be BS wouldn't fix anything either. So might as well b*tch and protest just the same. And last I checked the american dream was not work your ass off for sh*t wages you can hardly make ends meet with...nor was it leave the citizens to die when they are struggling. If the government adopts such a policy cool, but I imagine the majority wont stand for it at least I would hope not.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 08 Jun 2012, 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.