Misogyny/MRA is a sign of weakness

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Please don't straw man me, what do you think I mean about when I said don't throw the baby out with the bath water?

@ Did you read my whole post? I said 'pretty' women don't protest against strip clubs probably because they've got more to lose from doing so. I know lots of straight-as-a-line feminine women who HATE porn and strip clubs - but they're too nice to go around offending your manly sensibilities.

You seem to have created this unnatural feminazi monster in your head - some sort of archetypal loathely woman, like Grendel's mother from Beowulf - and projected it onto real people. These radical feminists you hate don't actually look as monstrous as you think they do - and even if they are ugly it doesn't necessarily follow that that either care about that, or are jealous of naturally feminine super specimens. Andrea Dworkin wasn't that ugly anyway, she was just fat. I know sex-positive BDSM-loving third wave feminist types who are about the same as her in terms of looks. You just think she's uglier because of her opinions.

Radical feminists don't think beauty standards are due to the media. They are actually quite open about this in that they blame men's biology. They're quite certain that this stuff is down to male sexuality - but they just don't like male sexuality. They want to ban porn and strip clubs because they want you to leave women alone, not because they think it will change what you're attracted to. They've already written men off. I was interested in radical feminism for a while and got to know a few of them, so I think I know what makes them tick better than most people.

As for the fertility age, thing - I didn't know that. So I guess most straight men liking girls in their late teens isn't to do with that. Maybe it's something to do with lifespan and the fact that we used to die younger. Either way, I don't have the same biological imperatives as straight guys do pushing me towards teenage-looking women, whatever they are.

I would consider the last two to be super hot and very dateable. Some of them don't look attractive, IMO; in fact, most of them don't. Would those same traits be attractive in men? I think, in many cases, yes.

It's interesting that most traits accepted as attractive in women are also attractive in men to many people, but the reverse is not always the case. If a man does everything a stereotypical woman does, he's going to be considered attractive by many people. If a woman does the same thing, she's going to have a tougher time.

^ Even if you don't find most of them attractive, I still don't think any of them are ugly. They're definitely not 'deserving' of ridicule for their looks.

That was the point I was trying to make to Greb before I gave up.

What more would an attractive woman lose than an ugly woman? Any intelligent person knows that banning pornography, is interfering with the personal freedom.



Check out the hideous women who debated against Hugh Hefner in te 1970's. Don't tell me they weren't envious. Also. Why would some feminists VANDALIZE sex shops if it wasn't because of envy?



If they weren't jealous, they'd understand that there are worse things than strip clubs.



I beg to differ.





Strippers, Hooters girls and porn stars are paid for what they do. This is also one thing that makes the radfems envious: They can't make money from their looks.



Most of the women rated as the hottest by AskMen are in their mid 20's to early 30's.

An attractive woman would lose male interest in her, an ugly woman never had it in the first place, so she can say what she thinks.

I'll tell you they weren't envious because I have freedom of speech and because that's my opinion. They vandalize the sex shops for the same reason anarchists spraypaint those As in a circle - the same reason any political group vandalizes things - to make a political point. I doubt anti-capitalist protesters are jealous of people working in Starbucks when they smash up coffee shops.

And they know fully well that there are worse things that strip clubs. Where did you get the idea that they didn't know this?

Also, you just had to find the picture of Andrea Dworkin looking her oldest, right?

Also, my point was that hot female celebrities usually look 18, even if they're 30. I was also saying that this doesn't really matter to me.

Funny thing is that the current feminism has ended up defending the same moral that opressed women for centuries: banning pornography, banning sexuality from media and public life, "saving" women against their will... they keep blaming men, bun in many ways it's modern feminists who are the spiritual heiresses of the opressive moral that ruled western world for so long.

An attractive woman won't lose male interest just like that.



Europeans have freedom of speech as well. I'll use mine to show just how bitter som radfems are.



Because daddy won't buy them the latest iPhone?



They give feminists who genuinely care about everyone a bad name—and further prove to everyone that they themselves are bitter, envious hags.



They're jealous of anyone who made something of their lives and got a useful degree, learned a trade or at least graduated high school. Starbucks, the Coca Cola Company and Wal-Mart are symbols of capitalism—and they'll take out anger caused by a life of failure at them.

They're only radical anarchists or communists because the left-wingers took them in before the neo-nazis did.



I've never seen Ottar (the Norwegian organization with all the fuglies) try to get the burqa banned or hold a demonstration outside the Saudi-Arabian embasdy in Norway.





Apart from the hair color, she looked the same at age 30.

Little Red Frothing Fornication Mouth isn't prettier, though:



They're only hurting women's rights by not adressing real issues.

Edit: Actually, Norway's strongest feminist, Siv Jensen (known in British tabloids as "the blonde pibull"), said that it's time that many of the radical feminists to stop blaming men and start working and showing that they're actually capable of something. This pissed many left-wing feminists off.

She's not a member of Ottar, she has an excellent salary and is an outspoken alpha-female in the Norwegian politics, which is heavily dominated by men. She doesn't want to ban strip clubs or pornography, but she genuinely cares about domestic violence, equal payment, wants more women in the politics and actually wants people to know about what's going on in the Arab states. She's never conveyed her message by riddiculing others or using violence. This is a good feminist.

I can't be bothered arguing this with you because you show an inability to actually engage rad fems with their argument. I'd probably count as a 'good feminist' in your book, but I almost don't want to.

Anyway, one of the reasons I like FEMEN the best out of all the rad fem organisations (and they are rad fems) is because they don't pull their punches regarding Christianity, Islam or any other patriarchal institution. I bet you don't have as much of a problem with them because most of them are hot, right?

You should check into what FEMEN does. They've never tried to ban strip clubs or pornography. They're mainly against sex tourism and mail-order brides (Ottar never said a word about this), but I don't agree with everything they do. They protest against fashion models and not the beauty industry, for instance; they don't claim that women who are slightly below average in body fat levels are bad for women.

I've spent 8 years as a physical training leader for the U.S. military.

I know what it takes for women to be "fit."

You can keep your Google pictures and "facts" extracted from your butthole.

Thanks.

I have no idea.

I have Aspergers.

Quaint folksy sayings aren't really my thing.

I actually think the lady with the red hair is cute.

f*****g nuts, but cute.

Resorting to ad hominem, are we? I went from a 15" to an 18.5" bicep size in just a year--starting nearly from scratch, I can shoulder press more than my own body weight, I can bench press 300 lbs (probably more if I hadn't fallen ill and lost a couple of pounds of lean muscle last month) and I can Yates Row 330 lbs for reps. I know what it takes for men to be fit--and I've seen what happens to women who lift. None of them look like bodybuilders, but after a good three months or so with bench presses, deadlifts and squats, the vast majority are more muscular than both Katy Perry or Selena Gomez. The fact of the matter is, most female actresses or singers are no more muscular than most 20-something girls who don't work out; they just have a little less body fat. Unless you worry about losing muscle, losing 10-15 lbs of fat is no big deal.

Just because a man has testosterone, doesn't mean that he'll look like Ivan Drago from lifting light weights a few times a week for a month. For anyone (regardless of gender) to actually gain a noteworthy amount of muscle (unless he/she has the genetics of a Greek god), said person needs roughly 0.8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight or more and needs to be on a caloric surplus. Add heavy compound lifts for years to this and you have the recipe for muscles and fitness.

For a man to have sixpack abs, he needs roughly 8% bodyfat or less; the medical ideal for a man is between 15 and 22% and less than 8-10% in the long run, may stall the testosterone production. Most female models (apart from fashion models) have roughly 18-23% bodyfat; the female medical ideal is 22-30% (although estrogen production will usually not stop until 14-17% body fat). Which is more difficult, only 10% below the medical ideal or barely half the medical ideal?

They're not just Google pictures. If the female beauty standards were as demanding as male beatury standards (i.e. any Hollywood woman had to workout as hard as Hugh Jackman does), pretty much any woman in any lightly dressed role would look like a bikini fitness woman (the 21. century one, that is, not the 1990's one). If standards were "fair", Spartacus would be filled with actors with mediocre amounts of lean mass and 12-14% body fat.

You're wasting time. Modern Western World feminism is populated by women that lack empathy. No matter how you try to explain how harder is for a man to be fit, no matter you put black on white with numbers, they're never gonna be able to understand it. They're just not able to have empathy and understand that live is not hard for women in western world because they're women, but because life is hard. And unfair. For everybody. And sometimes it's harder for women and sometimes it's harder for men. They can't get out of their little bubble. They will claim how hard is for women to be fit as a Hollywood star, and then if you explain that it is indeed way harder for men, then they'll blame you of crying. It's like talking with f*****g children.

When I think that corageous women risk life in countries as Afghanistan when they try, for example, to study. And here in western world "feminism" it's full of misbehaved unempathic selfish childish girls that think that the world rotates around them and their picky problems. They don't deserve to carry this name. They don't worth to be in the same wikipedia page than brave women that fought one century ago for women's rights risking their lives.

This thread turned into a really good example for me to use, my buddy has been writing a lot about Aspie men and male privilege, and this thread is so perfect as an example. Thanks to the guys in this thread, many many thanks.