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Orwell
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02 Jun 2009, 10:48 am

Ragtime wrote:

And that "game" has deadly consequences. I understood your point.

It has deadly consequences only if you make certain assumptions. I don't think you did understand my point.

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Ragtime
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02 Jun 2009, 10:52 am

JohnnyCarcinogen wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

JohnnyCarcinogen wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Dr. George "the baby killer" Tiller died the way he lived: murder.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523709,00.html

Yes, just as Jesus would have wanted - and advocated for all of the years he was upon this Earth.
As we all clearly remember, Jesus said "Murder your enemies."

Capital punishment is Biblical. The law should have caught up with Tiller long, long ago as the serial killer he was. Jesus never advocated a lawless society, or one without punishment for crime. His message was that our worldly concerns and strifes with each other are secondary, and that primarily we should focus on loving one another, because it's the next world -- the eternal one -- that matters most.
I'm not saying that Tiller's killer made the right choice. I'm just pointing out the succession of facts: 1. Tiller killed thousands of babies. 2. Tiller was killed. 3. Tiller doesn't kill babies anymore.

Abortion is legal. Tiller was your enemy, and you advocated for his death. Yet you agree that Jesus' message was that "we should focus on loving one another".

Twist away, Johnny.....

I advocate life. You cannot advocate life without advocating that murderers be stopped. Whether Tiller died or not was not my concern; my concern was that he stopped killing. Whether he also dies for that is between him and God. But Biblically, God would certainly not object to Tiller's death. God, being just and fair, would not say, "No! Don't kill the murderer! What a moral shame that would be!" The Bible casts God's personally as the polar opposite of that sentiment, and it's made clear many, many times that evildoers will get what's coming to them, guaranteed.

Now, people could say, if Tiller's killer is a Christian (I don't remember), that he should have heeded the verse: "'Vengeance is mine', saith the Lord; 'I will repay'." But, this was not an act of vengeance, or at least not only that, because the killings were ongoing. If Tiller had stopped that practice, then his killing would be an act of vengeance. But it isn't.

Losing sleep over Tiller's death is a bit sick, if you ask me. Quite backward in thinking.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 02 Jun 2009, 11:05 am, edited 3 times in total.

Orwell
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02 Jun 2009, 11:00 am

Ragtime, don't speak for God. Do not ever presume you know God's thoughts better than anyone else and can act as His spokesman on Earth.

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02 Jun 2009, 11:02 am

MattShizzle wrote:

I actually don't see much difference - in fact very early on an abortion is getting rid of something with fewer cells than the brain of a fly. Personally I see absolutely nothing whatsoever with abortion up until the moment of birth.

Well you're entitled to think whatever you like. But as far as I'm concerned that's sickening, and even though when it comes down to it I'm on your "side" of the pro-choice/life issue, I think your perspective is almost as ignorant as thinking it's cool to kill abortion doctors.

Ragtime
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02 Jun 2009, 11:06 am

Orwell wrote:

Ragtime, don't speak for God. Do not ever presume you know God's thoughts better than anyone else and can act as His spokesman on Earth.

You'll notice if you go back and read what I wrote that I have done no such thing.

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Orwell
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02 Jun 2009, 11:10 am

After 3 edits to that post? And it still shows your arrogance of presuming to speak for God. "God would certainly not object to Tiller's death," you say. That is a hideous sentiment, and you have no basis for making it. You are projecting your politics onto God.

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phil777
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02 Jun 2009, 11:17 am

small note : terrorism does not necesserly includes the use of force, the goal of terrorism is to provoke a mass psychological reaction, usually distress, fear and to make you feel powerless. Also terrorist groups usually act in the dark, without revealing names, but when they declare themselves, how can you bran them as such? =/ What stops you from checking the member's list and avoid all the concerned persons? =/ (but yes, terrorism is often used to advocate a change in politics). Still i wouldn't qualify this as terrorism. Religious Zealotry will do. ~.~

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02 Jun 2009, 1:19 pm

Ragtime wrote:

JohnnyCarcinogen wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

JohnnyCarcinogen wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Dr. George "the baby killer" Tiller died the way he lived: murder.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523709,00.html

Yes, just as Jesus would have wanted - and advocated for all of the years he was upon this Earth.
As we all clearly remember, Jesus said "Murder your enemies."

Abortion is legal. Tiller was your enemy, and you advocated for his death. Yet you agree that Jesus' message was that "we should focus on loving one another".

You can't simply kill the killers to eliminate them from society; you become one yourself, thereby creating the very product you're trying to destroy.

You advocate life, yet you have no problem with a killer killing someone you call a killer. You can't advocate life if you have no problem with someone murdering anyone - regardless of what they do.

As Orwell said, you don't speak for God.

What does it matter if this murder was an act of vengeance? It was cold-blooded, pre-meditated, planned murder committed in God's Holy House.

God isn't on anyone's side, nor is it for you to determine his will from a book.

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02 Jun 2009, 1:51 pm

Ragtime wrote:

I advocate life.

Then why gloat over a death? Especially when the death was intentionally caused. Most especially when no good or useful result is likely to come of it.

Quote:

You cannot advocate life without advocating that murderers be stopped.

If the goal were to stop the killings, the target would have been the clinic, or the laws that let him do what he did.

Quote:

Losing sleep over Tiller's death is a bit sick, if you ask me. Quite backward in thinking.

He didn't just die. He got murdered, in a church.

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02 Jun 2009, 2:15 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

He didn't just die. He got murdered, in a church.

I never thought I'd see Ragtime sink so low as to condone gunning down an unarmed man in the middle of a church service.

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Ragtime
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02 Jun 2009, 2:55 pm

Orwell wrote:

After 3 edits to that post?

If you're accusing me of something, come out and say it, Orwell. I don't edit my posts for deception, but I do edit them in order to get them just right, as everyone does. So you can get off my case and stop with the superior attitude. My posts are initially filled with spelling errors, believe it or not. I hate misspellings, so you'll rarely find them in my final edits.

Orwell wrote:

And it still shows your arrogance of presuming to speak for God. "God would certainly not object to Tiller's death," you say. That is a hideous sentiment, and you have no basis for making it. You are projecting your politics onto God.

Your purely-subjective and shock-feigning conclusion that mine is a "hideous statement" aside, we know enough about God from reading the Bible to know that he is for justice -- an eye for and eye -- except in cases of repentance. Tiller showed no sign of repentance whatsoever, and showed every sign of going forward with his, to use your word, hideous medical butchery.
Statements about God are made in the Bible. Did you know that? Many aspects of His character are clearly stated. I was echoing one of those which the Bible repeats countless times, and I gave examples from Scripture.
Bottom line, if you cast aspersions on my statements, you have to back up those accusations of error.

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ed
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02 Jun 2009, 3:01 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Your purely-subjective and shock-feigning conclusion that that is a "hideous statement" aside, we know enough about God from reading the Bible to know that he is for justice -- an eye for and eye -- except in cases of repentance. Tiller showed no sign of repentance whatsoever, and showed every sign of going forward with his, to use your word, hideous medical butchery.
Statements about God are made in the Bible. Did you know that? I was echoing one of those which the Bible repeats countless times.
Bottom line, if you cast aspersions on my statements, you have to back up those accusations of error.

I'm sorry, Ragtime... I misjudged you... all this time I thought you were a devout Christian. Guess you must be Jewish, since you put more stock in the words of the Old Testament than you do in the words of Jesus Christ.

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02 Jun 2009, 3:04 pm

Tiller was performing a legal and necessary procedure. If you want to change the law that allows all doctors to do this, you are welcome to try. He no doubt saved countless lives of mothers who's lived would otherwise be in danger due to pregnancy. Tell me this, if God loves life so much, why does he create pregnancies that, if carried to term, would kill the mother? That means God is a murderer.

Ragtime
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02 Jun 2009, 3:05 pm

JohnnyCarcinogen wrote:

You advocate life, yet you have no problem with a killer killing someone you call a killer.

Already explained. :roll:

Quote:

You can't advocate life if you have no problem with someone murdering anyone - regardless of what they do.

Right. So, if you advocate life, then why do you have no problem with murder in the womb? Real estate must mean everything to you, because location is the only difference between a 9-month-old "fetus" in the womb and a 9-month-old "baby" outside the womb. The supposed difference is all politics!

Quote:

As Orwell said, you don't speak for God.

An obvious statement. Go on...

Quote:

What does it matter if this murder was an act of vengeance? It was cold-blooded, pre-meditated, planned murder committed in God's Holy House.

You've never on WP sounded like you'd care much about the holiness of a church building. And "cold-blooded, pre-meditated, planned murder" is a perfect description of what Dr. Tiller did for a living. Yet, that doesn't bother you.

Quote:

God isn't on anyone's side

Wow, rather presumptuous for one who just told me I don't speak for God. I don't speak for God, He speaks for Himself just fine. But do you now presume to speak for Him?

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Last edited by Ragtime on 02 Jun 2009, 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Orwell
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02 Jun 2009, 3:09 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Orwell wrote:

You are assuming that this is justice. Nowhere in the Bible will you find an endorsement of your view of "justice." You are proceeding on the completely unfounded assumption that what TIller did was wrong.

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Ragtime
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02 Jun 2009, 3:16 pm

Orwell wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Well, killing other people who have committed no crime is generally considered immoral in most cultures. Come to think of it, God considers it wrong as well. (Unless I'm "presuming to speak for God" by quoting "Thou shalt not kill".)

Here is a Scripture verse that explains, for your benefit, Orwell, why justice for Dr. Tiller is defined as his death:
God speaking in Ex 9:6: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

That's pretty clear. Have I strayed from the verse's meaning, Orwell?

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