Any libertarians here?

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I'd consider myself a Libertarian-leaning Centrist. The Libertarian Party is a bit extreme to me. I don't want to privatize roads or *completely* get rid of welfare. The thing that worries me most about party-line Libertarianism is that it would probably end up in huge corporate control, which is just as bad (if not worse) than big government.

I'm also wary of completely privatizing most essential things. Could you imagine having a corporate monopoly on utilities? It'd be nightmare! I think healthcare is my only exception to this. America's healthcare system actually worked really well before the government gave us HMOs in the 1970s. As for education, I would rather see that be on the state level. Instead of having one un-elected horrible mess of a government education systems, we would have 50 competing systems (plus everything in the private sector).

I also want a gold or silver standard. Fiat currency is probably one of the most evil inventions ever created, imho. It encourages fiscal irresponsibility and discourages savings because of inflation which feeds the debt-based credit system that, unfortunately, we've been forced to rely upon. I also think fractional-reserve banking should be abolished in its entirety.

The government should also keep away from our private lives, and we definitely need a lot less regulation in some areas (like zoning laws). Those are my views in a nutshell.

I started to make a thread on Libertarianism and then saw this one. Gotta love this site. Anyway I am a pretty hard core Libertarian within reason. I mean I do not believe that government should cease to exist. Now, I am no where close to being a statist, however, I do believe government has a function. I live in Michigan and there are a lot of 'timothy mcveigh' type libertarians, whom have the mentality of "Oh look, I've got a half acre of land and a rifle so that makes me an autonomous individual who doesnt need complex government." This fails to take into the account of how modern society has evolved to the point of becoming irrevocably intertwined among its various facets. Yet, every single one of them benefits every day from that very system, and when pushed, many admit that they used government services without giving it a second thought, contrary to their ideological standpoints. As far as welfare, it's a necessary evil, health care I'd have to read a little more, but as of now I'm not very 'libertarian' on that issue. Basically, I say let me do what I want, and at the same time I'm all for the free market. So, I'd say that makes me a libertarian.
Here's the hardcore part, I'm for legalizing all drugs, again all. Against government issued ID.
There was a 'tea party' rally here in the US. The one in MI was held at the Lansing capital. Anybody else here make it to the other rallys in other states?

Taxing consumerism is bad?

A flat tax across the board is not fair?

My check has income tax already taken out of it before I even say it, and then if I don't "pay my taxes" then I am a bad person. Income taxes have been paid but just were not what the govt. wanted. Tired, so tired of the guessing game that income taxes involve. To make it work you have to turn around and pay an accountant to figure out your "potential" tax liability before you have even made any money. And, if your crystal ball is wrong then oh well, yoi are a tax cheat. Bull Hockey on the fairness of what you propose.

Aside from the fact that the obligation to pay tax is not in the law (IRS refuses to provide proof and everyone who investigates the USC and USCA cannot find one line of statutory code that establishes such a duty), most people don't realize how the tax liability comes into being.

The IRS just makes it up. They have no foundation in law to back their rationale. What they do is get a law passed that requires the filing of an income tax return. To complete the return, you must follow the instructions that the IRS provides. Then you sign it, affirming under oath that it is correct. As a result, by following the IRS' instructions, you conclude a number that you assert you OWE. None of it based on law. The IRS could say take what you earned in ____ year. Divide by 2. Enter result on Line 8. This is the amount you OWE, and they would create a tax liability out of thin air, without any foundation in law. The IRS is not a legislative body, but it largely created the tax code with are just rules they apply in house. Congress has no say in the matter.

^The 16th Amendment to the United States Constitution allows for income tax. An act of Congress created the IRS and delegated to it the responsibility dealing with the administrative aspects of collecting the income tax. IRS policy requires you to pay income tax.

I've been known to sympathize with certain aspects of libertarian theory, when it's convenient.

By this, you mean that you are part of a revolutionary movement to overthrow the government due to the slavery that taxation of all forms imposes upon the population, correct?

Wrong. Supreme Court case shortly after the 16th Amendment states that it created no new taxation authority. That has not been overturned.


IRS policy is not law...it is internal, and, again, the IRS cannot produce a single line of text that PROVES that there is a legal duty to pay the income tax. The IRS refuses to produce any such documentation to this day. If it exists, why not produce it and end the debate?

And yet they have upheld the income tax. Odd, isn't it?


The IRS is authorized to act on behalf of Congress in collecting taxes, so IRS policy has the force of law.

Odd only because you do not realize that the income tax has not been upheld. I've discussed this at length elsewhere and do not desire to rehash it again.


The IRS is authorized to act on behalf of Congress in collecting taxes, so IRS policy has the force of law.[/quote]

Sorry, wrong again. Internal policy is not law. Policy cannot be drafted that acts without the backing of law or operates in contradiction to existing law.

Again, I've detailed this at length elsewhere here do not desire to rehash it again.

It certainly has not been struck down, or we wouldn't still be paying it, now would we?


No, right again. Congress has delegated the authority of collecting taxes to the IRS. IRS has Congress's backing, and it certainly is not in contradiction to existing law as no federal law prohibits the collection of income tax.


Always a nice cop-out. You could give a link.

If you don't think it's legal try not paying them and see what happens. Have fun with your new roommate "Bubba."

Yeah, my dad's friend didn't pay his income taxes sometime in the 1980s, because he said he didn't have to. Well... he got into pretty big trouble....

Get assigned a new schmoozy position in the Obama administration with all kinds of power. I'm in.

Maybe google Harry Browne and look at what he has to say. Trying to remember if it is Harry Browne that has over 17,000 IRS documents through FOIA requests that very much backs up what zer0netgain is saying here. If it is the same guy, then I heard him daring the IRS to take him to court.

I have an income and without due process my money is taken.

But, today, it is bad to question anything government, especially the IRS. Because of the repercussions and people leaning to socialism and tax, tax, tax. Tyranny anyone. If only our founding fathers could have predicted this.

Are you thinking of someone else? A quick Google search gave me Browne advocating the repeal of the income tax, but I didn't see much right away to suggest he's one of the loonies who denies that the income tax is currently established by law, he just seemed to have thought it was bad law that should be reformed. Those are very different stances- what I saw from Browne was a personal political opinion, what I've seen from zer0netgain has just been outright false claims.