Religious but otherwise sensible and intelitgent people

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Fuzzy
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14 Aug 2009, 11:07 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

I was trying to refer to the incident at Columbine.

I believe you might best define those boys as 'reactionary', 'crazy' and 'militant atheists'. By that i mean militant in that they were not just atheists, but atheists with a bone to pick. Militant atheists are generally rebelling or reacting against something. Pretty common for teens, but in this case, it was mixed up in 'crazy' and 'guns'.

I think they also might have been homosexuals that were not out of the closet.

The question I am begging, of course, is how religious are their parents? Were they shoe horned into a religious life style that they didnt want?

That isnt to say that is what set them off. By all accounts it was bullying and denigration at school. But if you have nowhere to be yourself, not even at home, you have no outlet.

Tell me what you think of this gentleman, if you please? I'd like your view point on him.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbH2DHUCg00[/youtube]

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MissConstrue
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14 Aug 2009, 11:37 pm

Fuzzy wrote:

Tell me what you think of this gentleman, if you please? I'd like your view point on him.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbH2DHUCg00[/youtube]

OMFG, is he 4 real? :lol:

He's definitely got issues and dare I say closeted ones. < <

One cannot help but feel sorry for this poor soul who's been deluded and brainwashed.

Father, forgive him, for he does not know what he is doing.... :cry:

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Master_Pedant
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15 Aug 2009, 2:41 am

CaroleTucson wrote:

What I don't understand is why otherwise intelligent people continue to fan the flames of this "debate". You know there's no resolution to it ... why keep stirring it up? It's just attention-getting.

I like what someone here commented in an earlier thread .... those who whine and rant against religion are just as boring as those who whine and rant for it.

I'm sorry but intellectual quietism has never been my thing.

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15 Aug 2009, 2:44 am

Izaak wrote:

Enthusiastic adherant of "any train of through" can be construed as dumbasses and do god awful things.

Nazis killed jews for socialism. Russians killed beurgois in the name of communism. The French and the English killed eachother for a hundred years in the name of prestige. Religious people aren't the only people capable of being whackjobs. They're just the most likely at the current moment.

Heck, there is even ECO-terrorism.

As to the original thread. I am an atheist, and as such am not much of a fan of spirituality in any of its forms. But there are far better ways to go about it than veiled insults via intimating that religious people can not be sensible or intelligent.

The Nazis killed for Nazism. Despite using the term "National Socialism" they were no friends of real socialists, as evidenced by their murder of members of the Social Democratic Party of Germany and actual Communists.

DentArthurDent
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15 Aug 2009, 3:19 am

Izaak wrote:

But there are far better ways to go about it than veiled insults via intimating that religious people can not be sensible or intelligent.

Well once again here we have a post where the person has not bothered to understand the original post. Where in my OP was the intimation that these people are not intelligent or worse still stupid??????? The opposite is in fact true, you may disagree with my methods in trying to get a serious debate going regarding why (to me at least) it seems desire to believe in god is so strong that people to ignore so many scientific advances that they some how circumvent their obvious intelligence to do it. So please criticise my musings but do try not create additions to what I have said so that you can blast me for it.

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zer0netgain
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15 Aug 2009, 8:46 am

CaroleTucson wrote:

What I don't understand is why otherwise intelligent people continue to fan the flames of this "debate". You know there's no resolution to it ... why keep stirring it up? It's just attention-getting.

Here is how you know the difference between an Atheist and a "wanna-be atheist."

A real Atheist has no issue with your believing in God. If that makes you happy, so be it.

A "wanna-be atheist" feels the need to disprove God at every opportunity. They are insecure...fighting their own internal doubts and trying to validate their self-delusion.

DentArthurDent
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15 Aug 2009, 9:39 am

zer0netgain wrote:

CaroleTucson wrote:

What I don't understand is why otherwise intelligent people continue to fan the flames of this "debate". You know there's no resolution to it ... why keep stirring it up? It's just attention-getting.

What a load of complete and utter BS. Have you ever considered that many people, who are very secure in their own spiritual beliefs are pissed off to the max with religionists pushing their beliefs as hard as they can to effect changes to laws, and the behaviour of others. If religionists would keep their f*****g beliefs to themselves and not attempt to force others to behave in acordance with their superstition I would have absolutely no problem.

In fact I see many positives to religious beliefs that I miss out on, sense of community, having the fear/unhapinness of death replace by the joy of believing that you are off to heaven to name just the obvious ones.

ruveyn
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15 Aug 2009, 10:55 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

In fact I see many positives to religious beliefs that I miss out on, sense of community, having the fear/unhapinness of death replace by the joy of believing that you are off to heaven to name just the obvious ones.

An atheist or agnostic can have a sense of community by joining the Ethical Humanists, the Unitarian Church or The Brights. If you are not nauseated by the odor of pinko stinko liberals, you will do just fine there.

Or you can become an Objectivist and genuflect to the image of Ayn Rand.

ruveyn

Sand
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15 Aug 2009, 12:03 pm

ruveyn wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

No need to smell stinko pinko liberals. Join a motorcycle gang for great community feelings.

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15 Aug 2009, 3:52 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

I dont get it, I watch the news and I see the 'Leader of the Free World' who for once is an obviously intelligent, well read and grounded person, who goes about his business in a reasonably objective and analytical fashion. Now this man on the TV talks about god but to my bemusement he does not talk about the fallacy of god but instead talks about his belief in god.

Two days ago a bunch of highly educated Rabbis flew all over Israel chanting prayers at 'god'' when they landed they proclaimed that the state of Israel was now protected from swine flu.

Here in Australia we have some seriously intelligent and well educated Parliamentarians who are devout believers in 'god'

For millennia the bible was and still is accredited as the 'true word of god' during the middle ages great thinkers were put to death for questioning various aspects of its voracity. Since then science has continuously ripped away at its credibility and yet still people believe this drivel. So which bits are the word of 'god' and which bits are not. Either it is the word of a super being or it is a compilation of superstitious beliefs from people that did not understand the natural environment, it cannot be both

So to sum up, I just do not understand how otherwise intelligent, objective and analytical people can believe in such superstitious clap trap from and age of unenlightened ignorance

Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. - Shermer

And if those beliefs further happen to be universally embraced in a given society and homage to them surest way to climb the social ladder, one would have to be a fool or idealist to denounce them.

DentArthurDent
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15 Aug 2009, 4:53 pm

^ nice I think this sums it up quite well.

Although I think social pressures are only part of it. Trying to imagine either A. how the universe was formed, and what was there before it formed or B. The the universe has always been and will always be makes my brain hurt, How much easier the strain on my thinking if I just simply invent or believe in a creator and then use understandable concepts to delude myself. - ie the quote from from Shermer. The need to understand things is such a strong one with humanity, the answer 'I do not know' just does not cut it for many people.

I fully understand the need not to speak out against such an entrenched idea as religion. Darwin certainly knew it waiting over 20 years to publish his theories. What concerns me is how politicians are now actively promoting their beliefs. Ever since the republican party discovered the power of the evangelical vote presidential candidates have been falling over themselves to get into churches with the camera's following. Here in Australia a country that once god would never come up in political debate we now know the religious beliefs of all the major players.

zer0netgain
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15 Aug 2009, 6:31 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

There is a difference between acting to ensure your views in political forums are represented and the person who feels the need to confront someone the instant that they learn they are Christian and proceed to lecture them on how wrong they are to think that way.

Real atheists don't have an issue with other people's beliefs. The wanna-bes try to force it down your throat at every turn.

ruveyn
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15 Aug 2009, 7:02 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

I fully understand the need not to speak out against such an entrenched idea as religion. Darwin certainly knew it waiting over 20 years to publish his theories.

Had Alfered Wallace not been prepared to "scoop" Darwin in 1858, -Origin of Species- very likely would have been published after Darwin died. It was only the prospect of Wallace publishing first that moved Darwin to publish in 1859 and make a joint presentation with Wallace.

ruveyn

Ancalagon
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15 Aug 2009, 7:27 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

Your thread title is "Religious but otherwise sensible and intelligent people". In other words, religious people are implied to be unintelligent and senseless when discussing religion.

If you make a thread title which deliberately insults a group of people, you should not be surprised if those people don't react well to it.

Master_Pedant wrote:

Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. - Shermer

That would be reasonable explaination of smart people believing non-smart things, but you make the same mistake as the OP, by failing to even attempt to show that these things that are believed are as non-smart as you think.

DentArthurDent wrote:

Trying to imagine either A. how the universe was formed, and what was there before it formed or B. The the universe has always been and will always be makes my brain hurt,

That reminds me of something Arthur C. Clarke said: "Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."

Quote:

If religionists would keep their f***ing beliefs to themselves and not attempt to force others to behave in acordance with their superstition I would have absolutely no problem.

If what you mean by this is that you think nations should not become theocracies, since that would limit the religious (and irreligious) freedom of its citizens, then I agree with you.

But if what you mean is that religious people should shut up since there are people who disagree with them, then why don't you shut up, since there are people who disagree with you?

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DentArthurDent
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15 Aug 2009, 7:34 pm

ruveyn wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

I fully understand the need not to speak out against such an entrenched idea as religion. Darwin certainly knew it waiting over 20 years to publish his theories.

Funny thing with this, as I understand it Wallace came to Darwin to sound out 'his' new theory.

DentArthurDent
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15 Aug 2009, 7:48 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

Quote:

If religionists would keep their f***ing beliefs to themselves and not attempt to force others to behave in acordance with their superstition I would have absolutely no problem.

The former is pretty much my position. I am pretty much against any religious ideology being represented in law, or parliament. That saidI really do not care what superstitions people believe in.

For example,I also believe Wicca to be a complete croc of s**t, however this is the first time on WP that I have expressed this view, why? because (at least in the society in which I live) this belief system has virtually no impact upon the live of others not connected with it, so I have no desire to confront these people because they and their beliefs have no impact upon me.

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